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Ghulam
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:25 am Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 4742 Location: Upstate NY
Bart - "The only improbable part was the run for the station from the hotel." (re: 3:10 to Yuma)

SPOILERS

An outlaw who is a notorious killer would not be fed at the family dinner table with one's wife and children, and the wife sitting next to the outlaw. The feats of the 14 year old are unbelievable. The probability of anyone agreeing to take such a perilous journey is low. And the ease with which the outlaw lets himself be arrested is another eyebrow raiser. The relationship between the two is complex and interesting but not believable.
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Syd
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:25 am Reply with quote
Site Admin Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 12944 Location: Norman, Oklahoma
What happened in Mexico about 1990?

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gromit
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:39 am Reply with quote
Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 9016 Location: Shanghai
The Second Mexican Revolution.

From 1988 on, the PRI stranglehold on Mexican politics and life began to unravel. It wasn't until 2000 that an opposition candidate became president, but the process of change and reform was going strong all through to the 90's.(Recently the PRI has been finishing 3rd). NAFTA also kicked in on Jan 1, 1994, although preliminary agreements had been put in place prior to that.

A little wiki-history:
Quote:
The presidential elections held in 1988 marked a watershed in Mexican politics, as they were the first serious threat to the party in power by an opposition candidate, Cuauhtémoc Cárdenas, a defector from the ruling Institutional Revolutionary Party (PRI) and son of former President Lazaro Cardenas, who was nominated by a broad coalition of leftist parties. He officially received 31.1 percent of the vote, against 50.4 percent for Carlos Salinas de Gortari, the PRI candidate, and 17 percent for Manuel Clouthier of the National Action Party (PAN). It was widely said that Cardenas had won the election, but that the then government-controlled electoral commission had altered the results after the infamous "glitch in the system" (se cayó el sistema, as it was reported).

In the concurrent elections, the PRI came within 11 seats of losing the majority of Chamber of Deputies, and opposition parties captured 4 of the 64 Senate seats - the first time that the PRI had failed to hold every seat in the Senate. Capitalizing on the popularity of President Salinas, however, the PRI rebounded in the mid-term congressional elections of 1991, winning 320 seats.

Subsequent changes included the creation of the Federal Electoral Institute in the 1990s and the inclusion of proportional representation and first minority seats in the Senate. The presidential election of 1994 was judged to be the first relatively free election in modern Mexican history. Ernesto Zedillo of the PRI won with 50.2 percent of the vote, against 26.7 percent for Diego Fernández de Cevallos of PAN and 17.1 percent for Cardenas, who this time represented the Party of the Democratic Revolution (PRD). Although the opposition campaign was hurt by the desire of the Mexican electorate for stability, following the assassination of Luis Donaldo Colosio, the intended PRI candidate, and the recent outbreak of hostilities in the state of Chiapas, Zedillo's share of the vote was the lowest official percentage for any PRI presidential candidate up to that time.


Last edited by gromit on Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:21 am; edited 2 times in total

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lshap
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:46 pm Reply with quote
Site Admin Joined: 12 May 2004 Posts: 4248 Location: Montreal
Quote:
If newspapers are the first draft of history and books are the second draft, then screenplays are third drafts, much edited.


Gromit,

A pretty intuitive perspective. I plan to claim it as my own at parties.
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bart
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:46 am Reply with quote
Joined: 05 Dec 2005 Posts: 2381 Location: Lincoln NE
Ghulam, I'll try to address some of your points about 310 to Yuma...

"An outlaw who is a notorious killer would not be fed at the family dinner table with one's wife and children, and the wife sitting next to the outlaw. The feats of the 14 year old are unbelievable. The probability of anyone agreeing to take such a perilous journey is low. And the ease with which the outlaw lets himself be arrested is another eyebrow raiser...."

I think being fed at the dinner table was making a point about who Bale's character was, i.e. not a lawman, not a federal agent. Of course it was unorthodox. It was a weird situation, and it was presented as such.

As for the probability of anyone agreeing to take such a perilous journey, why yes, it IS low -- tales are told about the unusual, not (unless we're in indie film territory) the quotidian. Remarkable deeds, extraordinary situations, such is the basis for much of our civilization's dramatic entertainment.

Finally, as to the ease of being arrrested, well yes, of course -- that's precisely the film's point -- in delineating Crowe's character, we are given all kinds of indications of his reckless self-confidence, his conviction that he can Houdini himself out of any minor restraint that a bunch of bumpkins can wrap him in. He is playing a game, and this is one more illustration of that.

I recommend another viewing of this fine film.

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billyweeds
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:23 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 20618 Location: New York City
bart wrote:

Finally, as to the ease of being arrrested, well yes, of course -- that's precisely the film's point -- in delineating Crowe's character, we are given all kinds of indications of his reckless self-confidence, his conviction that he can Houdini himself out of any minor restraint that a bunch of bumpkins can wrap him in. He is playing a game, and this is one more illustration of that.

I recommend another viewing of this fine film.


Me too, if only to catch the absolute answer to the complaint being made above. SPOILERS IN WHITE:

Crowe has no intention of staying behind bars for long at all. He already boasted of having broken out of Yuma twice, and...most tellingly...why do you think the horse follows the train? I think Crowe means to escape within minutes, not months.
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Nancy
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:19 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 4607 Location: Norman, OK
My comment on billy's spoiler comment:

Of course he plans to escape. He's escaped from Yuma twice already, so he does know the way out. And I agree with you that he's planning to escape as soon as possible -- the horse shows that. I think he only got on the train so Bale's family would get the reward.

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Syd
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:55 pm Reply with quote
Site Admin Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 12944 Location: Norman, Oklahoma
Dan in Real Life is as awkward as it's title,* a failed romantic comedy set among one of those family reunions that I would find unbearable. Steve Carell is pretty good as a widower raising three children. Finally, after four years he meets an woman in a bookstore**, and since she's pleasant looks like Juliette Binoche, he's willing to give it a try. They hit it off, spend hours talking to each other, and he returns to the reunion talking about this woman he's met, when she turns up right in front of him. She's his brother's girlfriend.

Thus he has to spend the weekend under the same roof with her, his brother, his three daughters, his brothers and sisters and their spouses and children. It's not only a big house, it is the third largest city in Rhode Island.

There's not all that much chemistry between Carell and Binoche or, for that matter, between Dane Cook and Binoche. Binoche is fine most of the time, but the connection is just not there.

At one point, Dan's mother sets him up on a blind date once called Rachel Pigface. The date is, of course, now a knockout, played by Emily Blunt, who's now a plastic surgeon specializing in burn victims. Blunt is the best thing in the movie, and I rather wish I'd been watching a romantic comedy with Carell and Blunt as the leads.

----------
*Dan's an advice columnist. The title of the column is "Dan in Real Life."

**A "Bait-and-Book Shop"; the movie's set on the Rhode Island coast. Rhode Island is such a small state that they have to combine their bookstores and fishing accessories.

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lady wakasa
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:55 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 5911 Location: Beyond the Blue Horizon
Juliette Binoche is in that? How weird.

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lady wakasa
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:07 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 5911 Location: Beyond the Blue Horizon
How not to review a movie...
(not spoilerly; hopefully it doesn't spill too many beans...)

Lust, Caution is taking a beating in the critical arena.

- Manohla Dargis, New York Times: "...a sleepy, musty period drama about wartime maneuvers and bedroom calisthenics, and the misguided use of a solid director.... there's little left to the imagination in Lust, Caution, other than the inspiration for Mr. Lee's newfound flirtation with kink."
- Michael Phillips, Chicago Tribune: "Outside the bedroom, the wartime swirl of intrigue never develops beyond postcard imagery"
- Robert Wilonsky, Village Voice: "Ang Lee's sexed-up NC-17 thriller is neither sexy nor thrilling... it's amazing how something so cold is expected to generate so much heat."

By focusing on the sex scenes, however, most of these reviews miss the point. Yes, the movie is rated NC-17 for rather explicit sex scenes. But the sex is a symptom, not its focus.

Lust, Caution takes place in the depths of World War II China. A college acting troupe, caught up in patriotic fervor, decides to move its message from the stage into the real world by assassinating an official in the collaborationist government. The way to do this: have one of their younger members, Wang Chia-Chih, lure that official, Mr. Yee, with the promise of an affair. Wang Chia-Chih, alone and abandoned in wartime Hong Kong (her mother is dead; her father has taken her brother to England, promising to "send for her"), has found a natural affinity for acting; deceiving Mr. Yee is the role of a lifetime, not least because the plot puts their lives at stake.

But youthful idealism isn't reality, and their scheme becomes much more complicated. Even with a pause in their plans, the lines between acting and the real world blur and Wang Chia-Chih has to figure out who she is in all this - and there's no reneging, no running away.

Eileen Chang's original short story is spare and just long enough to get to the point; in fact, "the point" is presented as almost a passing thought, making it even more stark. Ang Lee dresses this framework in substantially more detail, adding richness to that stark point. Mr. Yee, in particular, becomes much more nuanced; he's changed from a short, squat middle-aged man who pauses in the course of his day into Tony Leung, with a much more textured personality. The sex scenes reflect the relationship between Wang Chia-Chih and Mr. Yee, and how they are drawn into a situation, an interaction, neither of them expected. Maybe sex between these enemies isn't supposed to "generate heat."

Critics who claim that the first part moves too slowly, that nothing really happens, aren't really watching. The many games of mah-jongg are important for the little details of information revealed in those scenes. We learn that the wives around the table, married to government officials, are of a certain social status that Mak Tai-Tai (Wang Chia-Chih's role) doesn't quite fit into as the wife of a businessman. They discuss lunch meetings, black market goods, and the rarity of pink and yellow diamonds; Mak Tai-Tai sports a jade ring. Mrs. Yee is the de facto leader of this group, so these sessions are held at her house. As a result, Mr. Yee comes and goes through their games. He keeps himself separate, refusing to play mah-jongg several times until joining the game is tied to Mak Tai-Tai; the timing of this event is also a key to what's going on behind the scenes. The furtive looks between Mak Tai-Tai and Mr. Yee over one game, which no one else notices, serve to first introduce us to their relationship. Quite a bit of setup and character development goes on over the tiles, taking place at the speed of life.

It's true that there are elements in the story that won't be clear to some Western audiences; just some of the mah-jongg strategy and winning hands make that clear. I've also read that "lust" in Mandarin is very close to the word "lost", and can be interpreted several different ways in the context of the story. That doesn't come across in English, and a layer of complexity slips away.

But rather than fault Ang Lee for not making his story more accessible, it should be recognized that the story is targeted to an audience familiar with its cultural references. The source material is by a well-known and somewhat controversial Chinese literary figure, and it unfold in a slow, subtle manner - which I'm told is a very Chinese way of storytelling. There are universalities that can be picked up: about the effects of environment and upbringing, about the nature of love, about what in relationships is and isn't an act, how war is hell with a twist. But these universalities are filtered through a Chinese lens. As such, I think it's up to the Westerners to go the extra mile and fill in blanks they find. The shoe on the other foot, to a certain degree.

Lust, Caution is a rich story and a fitting next step in Ang Lee's career. For anyone willing to do a little legwork, there's a thought-provoking narrative layered in the complexities of life, and attraction, and war. I highly recommend it.


Last edited by lady wakasa on Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:56 am; edited 1 time in total

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Marj
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:06 am Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 10497 Location: Manhattan
Lady -- I haven't seen Lust, Caution but hope to. Still your review didn't spoil a thing! Wonderfully written and insightful. Hope you'll send this to Lorne.
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Syd
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:24 am Reply with quote
Site Admin Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 12944 Location: Norman, Oklahoma
lady wakasa wrote:
Juliette Binoche is in that? How weird.


You know, this would have been a perfect movie in which to reunite Steve Carell and Catherine Keener.

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gromit
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:28 am Reply with quote
Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 9016 Location: Shanghai
I mostly agree with Ghulam on 3:10 to Yuma. A lot of it seemed rather unlikely and exaggerated, from the dinner scene through to the ending. I thought the Crowe character (and his main henchman) were overplayed. I liked the pacing though and it is fairly entertaining.

So the consensus here is that Crowe was just trying to seriously up the ante on his next escape?
I thought it was more of a mystical ending, where he was atoning and in a fashion taking on the character (and actualizing the will) of the one-legged rancher.
Not that that is particularly satisfying, but that's how I read it.

Re-watchable?
I would rather see the original ... or re-watch The Naked Spur (1953), with James Stewart and Robert Ryan enacting a similar, better excursion.

And speaking of the original.
How much is the same?
I'm assuming the ending has been significantly altered.

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billyweeds
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:55 am Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 20618 Location: New York City
gromit wrote:

So the consensus here is that Crowe was just trying to seriously up the ante on his next escape?
I thought it was more of a mystical ending, where he was atoning and in a fashion taking on the character (and actualizing the will) of the one-legged rancher.
Not that that is particularly satisfying, but that's how I read it.


SPOILERS IN WHITE:

No wonder that ending (your perception of it) was unsatisfying. It's like an Afterschool Special. The cynical ending works. And it still allows Crowe his moment of "growth." He allows himself to be captured--and kills the gang--to atone. But there's no fucking way he plans to stay locked up.
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gromit
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:27 am Reply with quote
Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 9016 Location: Shanghai
Yuma SPOILERS:

Quote:
The trek getting to the train was pretty ridiculous. Why would Crowe go along with it when he didn't have to and it was damn dangerous as everyone in town is shooting at them?

Why would Crowe off his entire gang? This made little sense, especially if he was planning to escape. Escape to what? Having no gang and being known as the guy who offed all his pals for no reason? I'd be more willing to believe that he'd escape to go back to the rancher's hot wife and cheeky kid.

I could believe that he offed his gang because the right-hand man had become too ruthless and efficient, and therefore too much of a threat to his top dog status.

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