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| lshap |
 Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 2:13 pm |
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Site Admin
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 4248
Location: Montreal
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| By the way, for those who don't know, a "Seder" is a Passover dinner that retells the whole story of Moses leading those ol' Hebrews out of Egypt. It's recited verbatim from a book and includes different foods that symbolize various elements of the story. Lotsa' wine, lotsa' food, lotsa' family. |
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| lady wakasa |
| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 2:39 pm |
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 5911
Location: Beyond the Blue Horizon
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| censored-03 |
| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 3:27 pm |
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Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 3058
Location: Gotham, Big Apple, The Naked City
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Quote: The only one not at peace with this neat relationship is you.
Lorne, Bless you and your family and all of our Jewish friends on this Festival of Spring. Don't let any plagues get you and don't let your bread rise ! 
p.s. My grandfather was a non-practicing Jew. I too always celebrate that part of my heritage with a little gefiltefish w/ beet horse radish and some onion matzoh at this time of year...geschmacht !...you should only enjoy ! |
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"Life is a comedy for those who think and a tragedy for those who feel."
-- Horace Walpole |
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| Joe Vitus |
| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 3:29 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 14498
Location: Houston
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Censored,
What you don't get is that the Church is after my (and and everyone's) ultimate well-being. I.e. a life of saintliness that will lead to an afterlife in the presence of God. The Church genuinely believes that to act on homosexual impulses is wrong and that it will prevent those who do from reaching salvation. They look at the individual's long-term goal, not the short-term pleasure.
Compare it to someone who doesn't want their alcoholic friend to have a glass of wine. Do they hate their friend for wanting the wine? No. Do they have compassion? Yes. Do they want their friend to give in on the short-term goal and lose the long-term goal of sobriety? No way.
Do I agree with this analogy? Of course not. I think being gay is completely natural, and if there is an afterlife, I really can't see how being gay effects it negatively. But not only is it just one tenet of a very complex (and very humane) religion, I also think this belief is so in line with every major world religion's take on homosexuality that I can't single Catholicism out for complaint. It's the same with Judaism and Islam. Indeed, Buddhism also had strictures against homosexuality, but as far as I can tell this is no longer the case (considering Buddhism rejects the reality of the physical universe, the ability for this religion to alter their outlook on a physical activity isn't surprising; I believe Christian Science, which has a similar take on the material world, also has removed it's strictures against homosexuality).
Do you even recognize how radical and recent our current attitutude towards homosexuality is? Not even ancient Greece tolerated it as a way of life unto itself, for all the homoeroticism in its culture (a man could chase after young boys all he wanted, and take one as a lover; but two adult males prefering each other to women was a big taboo; compare that to our contemporary take on things). There is literally no major religion, and no renowned school of philosophy in history, that supports it. That a faith which stretches back two thousand years isn't on the same page as contemporary trains of thought hardly surprises me, and won't be the litmus test for my evaluation of it.
I think we are at a major crossroads in the evolution of our mind. Of course I support this change (as well as the change in our attitude towards women, another radical shift, though it has about about a two hudred year head start on gay rights).
I think Catholicism is over all and intelligent and quite beatiful religion. I don't think it is completely accurate. So what? I think it comes closer to the mark than just about anything out there. By the way, the Church would show far more compassion and tolerance of you than you are showing towards it. It is ultimately an institution of love, not hate, and worth looking at in all it's intellectual/spiritual complexity. |
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| censored-03 |
| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:01 pm |
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Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 3058
Location: Gotham, Big Apple, The Naked City
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| Joe the complexity angle I get, as I do most of your last excellent post. My basic non-acceptance of theism is founded mostly through experience with the human race, not God or gods. I am like most humans ultimately I think of myself as a spiritual man with much love for that same human race. I do hypocritically find myself praying to an unkown entity when for instance my wife had a lump in her breast last year (benign thank god I even enjoy going to the one mass my Catholic wife goes to annually at Easter or watching the midnight mass on TV from St. Patricks at Chrismas. It is a beautiful and dramatic celebration of life as are many religious events. I really wish the world could move it along a little faster and make all religions as one, but alas not in my lifetime. |
_________________
"Life is a comedy for those who think and a tragedy for those who feel."
-- Horace Walpole |
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| lshap |
| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:07 pm |
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Site Admin
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 4248
Location: Montreal
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Funny forum to be having this cool discussion.
And not a bad idea for a future genre forum: "Are There Really No Atheists in a Foxhole? -- Religious Belief In Film". |
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| Joe Vitus |
| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:17 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 14498
Location: Houston
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Censored,
Thanks. I think I'm, largely, in the same position as you. |
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| marantzo |
| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:56 pm |
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Joe you are miss-informed about honmosexuality and the world's religions. The problem is that many, if not most religions have differents sects. Some accept homosexuality in there laity and there clerics. As for the Jewish faith, only the Orthodox (maybe even just the Ultra Orthodox) has strictures against homosexuality. They are a minority in the Jewish religion. The Conservative and Reform branch of Judiasm have no problem with homosexuality. These religions that I am talking about live in the modern world. The Roman Catholic hierachy does not, and the religion is monolithic not varied.
Of course you think it's a beautiful religion; the pomp, the colourful costumes, the artifacts...you're gay.  |
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| billyweeds |
| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 5:06 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 20618
Location: New York City
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marantzo wrote:
Of course you think it's a beautiful religion; the pomp, the colourful costumes, the artifacts...you're gay.
marantz--This is the first thing you've ever said about homosexuality that has the semblance of a sense of humor. LOL. |
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| Joe Vitus |
| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 5:20 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 14498
Location: Houston
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Marantzo,
You're right that in the past fifty years there have been a lot of strides in certain sects. You point to Jewish sects other than Orthodox. I could point to certain branches of Anglicinism (and I was somewhat making this case when I mentioned Christian Scientists...though, of course, they aren't Anglican). But remember that Catholicism is to Christianity what Orthodox is to Judaism. It's the most conservative, the oldest, and the slowest to alter doctrine.
I still think my basic point is valid. Homosexuality has been a major taboo in most every culture and every major religion in history. That things have started to change is great. That that haven't changed completely, and particularly in the most conservative branches, is hardly surprising.
Speaking of pomp and circumstance in religion, did you ever hear the joke about Tallulah Bankhead going to Mass for the first time, at St. Peter's Cathedral? She arrives late and stands in the back. She sees the Bishop about to start up the aisle in his rich vestments, swinging the container of incense in front of him. Knowing nothing of Church ritual, she whispers to him "Darling, your drag is divine, but your purse is on fire." |
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| ehle64 |
| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:12 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 7149
Location: NYC; US&A
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| Thanks for that link lady_w -- I bookmarked it to be read fully later. Pretty interesting stuff. |
_________________
It truly disappoints me when people do something for you via no prompt of your own and then use it as some kind of weapon against you at a later time and place. It is what it is. |
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| marantzo |
| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:34 pm |
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| Billy, I don't know what your idea is of my attitude toward gays. It seems to be coloured by my not wanting to watch men make out with each other in movies. I have no more problem with gays than heterosexuals. Butch lesbians I have a problem with. With the danger of being accused of stereotyping, I have known many openly gay men and I've usually found them more humourous and entertaining than the average guy. Two gay friends of mine had painted the handle of their fridge (one of those old ones that was perpendicular and you pulled it toward you to open the door), painted as a large penis. It was hilarious, but I didn't like opening the fridge. |
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| yambu |
| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:50 pm |
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Joined: 23 May 2004
Posts: 6441
Location: SF Bay Area
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| Try opening and closing it several times; slowly at first, then building speed. Report back. |
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| yambu |
| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:59 pm |
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Joined: 23 May 2004
Posts: 6441
Location: SF Bay Area
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Passover is the one time of year I wish I was Jewish. I've been privileged to have been invited to two seders in my life. The first time I was about ten, when I went to a friend's apartment. His parents were holocaust survivors. Talk about a love for life. I remember it like yesterday.
Unlike Thanksgiving, the Jews are wise to have scheduled seder outside football season. |
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| burritoboy |
| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 8:02 pm |
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Joined: 14 Apr 2005
Posts: 17
Location: Chicago
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Orthodox Judaism isn't quite as conservative or as slow to change as it represents itself. Most of the major Hassidic sects are not hugely older than Reform Judaism (mid-ninteenth century). Some are a few decades older, but usually not by much. Some of the major ultra-orthodox sects are particularly ancient at all (indeed, many only became large sects within the past 50 years or less).
More generally, Orthodox Judaism is often a reconstruction of an imaginary past. Many current Orthodox rules are actually modern-day pronouncements. For example, if you examine ritual items and old synagogues from the eighteenth century or before, it becomes clear that modern-day Orthodox doctrines were not being rigidly observed before the nineteenth century.
By the way, technically, Orthodox Judaism only bans certain forms of male homosexual acts. Female homosexuality is generally not (again, technically) banned. |
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