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| billyweeds |
 Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:07 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 20618
Location: New York City
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| I agree that Ledger's performance has been oversold, partially since his death but also partly at the time of the movie's release. This also has resulted in Gyllenhaal's performance being downgraded. Jake is the equal of Heath IMO--maybe even a little better. Gyllenhaal has been a great addition to movies ever since his breakthrough in October Sky. |
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| Marj |
| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:21 pm |
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 10497
Location: Manhattan
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I actually liked Brokeback Mountain more on my second viewing. My expectations weren't as high, I suspect. And I was able to understand the characters better. Not that anyone ever really does, which is in my opinion one of the beauties of the film. Ang Lee, allows us to come to our own conclusions.
Marc is certainly right that homophobia is still very much alive. We see it every day in our politics. But Gary, you surprised me when you talked about knowing of two gay classmates. If I had any I certainly wasn't aware of it, not that I was looking. I don't think I even knew the word "Gay," though I had heard the word "Queer." I wasn't quite sure what it meant but I thought it was an ugly word.
But then I went to college and I was in a Theater program. Men were out of the closet in droves and thank goodness. And we had real queens, especially some of my professors. And some of my friends came out while they were there.
Lenny Baker was a very close friend. We were often cast as brother and sister in plays. He stayed in the closet. You all know him if you've seen "Next Stop, Greenwich Village." He also won a Tony for "I Love My Wife." Anyhow, Lenny died in 1980 from cancer. Or so I thought. Turns out he was one of the first Aid's victims of note. |
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| billyweeds |
| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:30 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
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Location: New York City
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Marj wrote:
Lenny Baker was a very close friend. We were often cast as brother and sister in plays. He stayed in the closet. You all know him if you've seen "Next Stop, Greenwich Village." He also won a Tony for "I Love My Wife." Anyhow, Lenny died in 1980 from cancer. Or so I thought. Turns out he was one of the first Aid's victims of note.
That's the first time I've ever heard that. What a wonderful actor he was. Never knew you were friends. When did you play his sister?
Never knew he was gay even. He didn't read the slightest bit that way. |
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| Marj |
| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:52 pm |
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Joined: 21 May 2004
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Location: Manhattan
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No, Lenny was in deep denial and was never in anyway overtly gay.
I met him in college. He was going for his masters, I think, when I was a freshman. We took a psych course together. And played hangman during class. Then we'd study together for the exams. We both aced them. For some reason staying up all night made us very close. And our professor knew exactly what we were doing. He could never understand how we did so well! So, we were somewhat like brother and sister but I don't remember us ever discussing our personal lives. Maybe we did. I just don't remember.
We did two plays together. These were Masters Thesis plays so, no, you wouldn't have seen them. One was "Five Finger Exercise" and the other was "The Climate of Eden," one of Moss Hart's few flops. I have a ton of photos of both, mostly in rehearsal. If I could only get them onto a disk.
Funny thing, Billy. I ran into Lenny shortly before his death around W. 72nd St. He was oddly distant. We naturally promised to get together, which we didn't do. And then he died.
I still miss him ... |
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| Joe Vitus |
| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:19 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
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Location: Houston
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That story really gets to me, Marj. In a good way.
I remember seeing him in Next Stop, Greenwich Village on television when I was about 15. I thought he was attractive, which may sound odd because he plays a nebbishy character. |
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| Marj |
| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:22 pm |
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Joined: 21 May 2004
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| Then you'll be happy to know, Joe, he was far more attractive in real life. Also the funniest person I've ever known. |
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| Joe Vitus |
| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:28 pm |
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You're right Gary, I think the study is nonsense. I get a real kick out of imagining them telling the men who consider themselves bisexual "Sorry, but no. Despite being attracted to both men and women, and having had sex with both men and women, you are not really interested in both men and women." It's nonsense.
I also think saying someone isn't bisexual because they are attracted to one sex more than the other is a silly. I like sushi better than I like lasagna. Does that mean I don't "really" like lasagna? It's ridiculous. |
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| Joe Vitus |
| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:31 pm |
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Marj wrote: Then you'll be happy to know, Joe, he was far more attractive in real life. Also the funniest person I've ever known.
Oh, he was quite attractive enough for me. It just doesn't fit with our stereotype notion of "sexy." I can still picture him shirtless. I think the boyishness of the character appealed to me. There was a gentleness there that I liked.
I'm curious though, if you never talked about personal things, how you knew he was gay. Were there rumors? Or was it the complete absence of female romance in his life? |
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| Syd |
| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:48 pm |
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Joined: 21 May 2004
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Location: Norman, Oklahoma
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billyweeds wrote: I agree that Ledger's performance has been oversold, partially since his death but also partly at the time of the movie's release. This also has resulted in Gyllenhaal's performance being downgraded. Jake is the equal of Heath IMO--maybe even a little better. Gyllenhaal has been a great addition to movies ever since his breakthrough in October Sky.
I thought Gyllenhaal and Michelle Williams were both very good and Anne Hathaway was pretty good. I didn't like Ledger's performance, but that's partly because I didn't like Ennis.
I agree with Joe. There were places they could have gone where they would have been accepted and Jake, who was much more open than Ennis, would have known that. I could believe Ennis being clueless about that, but not Jake. |
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| lissa |
| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:24 pm |
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Quote: Hey, look up the studies. If you don't trust them, then you don't
From someone whose life has begun to encompass research, I can tell you that when researchers want their results to be skewed, they'll find a way to do so. This is the most difficult kind of study in which to get any sort of generalized statement - you'd have to test a sample of hundreds, if not thousands, of people from all orientations, get absolutely true honest answers from everyone, and establish some sort of objective instrument with which to test the science. I don't believe it can be done.
I'd love to see any of those reports, though. Googling them won't get us anywhere - valid reports on such things come from peer reviews and journals, and Google is a mishmash of a search engine yielding very few valid hits. If you quote a study, provide it - I would be very interested in reading the reports.
(But I also don't believe those results to be true; just too difficult to "prove" and makes no sense in the first place). I think the researchers were homophobic men afraid they might be latently gay or bisexual. |
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| marantzo |
| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:45 pm |
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Quote: (But I also don't believe those results to be true; just too difficult to "prove" and makes no sense in the first place). I think the researchers were homophobic men afraid they might be latently gay or bisexual.
Glad you are so open minded. They weren't homophobic men, there were both men and women. It was an study and they didn't make up the results. They had somewhere around 200 subjects, which they mentioned was not a large group. And regarding Joe's silly comment, they didn't tell the men anything. They studied the results and published a paper. It was conducted at a university in the U.S. and in Canada. I'll have to check back on it. It's been a long time since I've read it and I'm sure there have been other studies since. I'll try to find the one with the flies also.  |
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| Joe Vitus |
| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:17 pm |
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Where's your openmindedness Gary? You don't even question the methods or results or the population sample of the studies. "Openminded" seems to mean "see things my way."
It's odd to me that under the very clincal methods, they expected an unguarded physical response. And considering the variety of what people find attractive, it's not so simple as putting an image of some naked muscleman or stacked woman in front of them and figuring out from that whether they are attracted to "males" or "females." |
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| lshap |
| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:27 pm |
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Joined: 12 May 2004
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Location: Montreal
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Once again, I'm here to rescue common sense from you yokels.
Heath Ledger was great in Brokeback Mountain. Yeah, great. As in Best-Actor-worthy great. His inner battle was heart wrenching to watch precisely because he was a man who sensed what he needed, but had no clue how to approach it. Every one of his grunted responses was a painful substitute for what he really wanted to say, and his silence spoke volumes on the screen. I thought Ennis was one of the loneliest and saddest people I'd ever seen, and it sold me on Ledger as an amazing actor.
I'll grant Joe that the story itself may have inaccurately portrayed gay men living in that era, but I really don't care about the details of where and what. It was all about who. It was a tragic love story, period. And on that score it succeeded extremely well. |
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| lissa |
| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:18 pm |
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| I'm not a yokel. I'm an omelette. |
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| Marj |
| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:00 pm |
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Joined: 21 May 2004
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Joe Vitus wrote: Marj wrote: Then you'll be happy to know, Joe, he was far more attractive in real life. Also the funniest person I've ever known.
Oh, he was quite attractive enough for me. It just doesn't fit with our stereotype notion of "sexy." I can still picture him shirtless. I think the boyishness of the character appealed to me. There was a gentleness there that I liked.
I'm curious though, if you never talked about personal things, how you knew he was gay. Were there rumors? Or was it the complete absence of female romance in his life?
Joe, he was attractive and attracted to women too. I don't remember us ever discussing his sexuality. We might have and I've just forgotten. I'm not sure how I found out he was gay. Remember for years I thought he had cancer. Someone must have corrected me. |
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