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| lissa |
 Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:52 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 2148
Location: my computer
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| Have to agree with you, Marc. Movies about various vocations, hobbies, lifestyles and/or careers aren't aimed at those target audiences, nor should they be. Strong characters, compelling storylines and engaging dialogue will appeal no matter the audience. |
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| Joe Vitus |
| Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 10:56 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
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Location: Houston
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Marc wrote: Quote: The only hope The Wrestler has of a long life is if it's taken up by the wrestling community with the same intensity Scarface was taken up by gangstas.
Joe, comeon. That's like saying TAXI DRIVER 's only hope of a long life is if it's "taken up" by cab driver's, THE MALTESE FALCON by private investigators or THE GODFATHER by members of the Mafia. THE WRESTLER will have a long life as long as there are people who like good movies and great actors. One of my favorite films is PSYCHO and I've never dressed in drag or run a motel.
THE WRESTLER could have as easily been about a washed-up rock star, actor, radio deejay, writer....I doubt THE WRESTLER did well with the wrestling community. Wrestling fans want heroes not lost souls. Those that worship at the altar of the WWA (World Wrestling Association) will not have the patience for a dark brooding film film in which a wrestler grapples with his mortality, drug problem, estranged daughter and love for a stripper. Keep in mind that most wrestling fans are a bunch of narrow minded rednecks with the attention span of a gnat.
My point wasn't to diss The Wrestler—it so happens I think Scarface is wildly underrated, and the gansta community rallying around it has kept a misunderstood picture available—but that I think the setting and the in-your-face nature of The Wrestler is likely to alienate more people than it attracts. And that unless a particular subgroup takes it up as "their" movie, it has a less likely chance of a long lifetime.
I think most of the movies you list—Psycho, obviously, but also Taxi Driver and The Godfather—are clearly made by and for people outside the protagonists' mindsets. They are also about subjects that, either out of honest interest or prurience, have a built in attraction to a wide audience.
The trouble with saying The Wrestler could have been about a rock star, actor, whatever, is that those characters are almost instantly appealing, attractive, and persue professions immediately recognizable for giving pleasure. We're likely to be for the lead character right from the start. Wresting turns off most people from the start, and the return-to-glory won't mean much to the mainstream audience. So the comeback story of a wrester, particularly in a gritty, no-holds-barred way, is a tough sell.
On the other hand, Milk is an affirmative picture, there is a gay community that will always recommend it both for its historical import and its artistic quality, and so it has more of an assured built-in audience.
Again, this does not come down to Wrestler-bad/Milk-good. Or Rouke-good/Penn-greater. I don't really know how the two performances can be compared. Apples and oranges. Just that if we're going to predict which has the greater chance of survival, I think the picture is Milk. |
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| Marc |
| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:20 am |
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Joined: 19 May 2004
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Joe,
You make some good points. Though TAXI DRIVER, which is considered a modern classic, is every bit as dark and demented as THE WRESTLER and continues to be viewed by new generations of film fans. And describing a film about a psycho cab driver as being clearly made by and for people outside the protagonists' mindsets suggests that THE WRESTLER was made by and for washed-up wrestlers. You're right TAXI DRIVER director Martin Scorsese is not a psycho cab driver and I'm sure he was hoping the film would draw an audience a little broader than other psycho cab drivers. Darren Aronofsky who directed THE WRESTLER is not a wrestler and I am sure he made his movie with the intention of reaching beyond wrestling's fandom. If THE WRESTLER had been made with the intention of only reaching an audience that was within the protagonists' mindsets it would have sold a few dozen tickets not several million. |
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| Syd |
| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:30 am |
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 12929
Location: Norman, Oklahoma
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Befade wrote: Why is that? Naomi Watts was dazzling in Mulholland Drive........but not in anything since. Same as Thandie Newton in Besieged......David Thewlis was good in this.......I haven't forgotten him.
What will Mickey's next role be?
I mostly remember Thewlis for his role in Naked (don't like the film that much, but Thewlis gave one of the great acting performances of all time) and for being the perfect Remus Lupin. I'd missed or completely forgotten that he had a role in The New World.
I'm relieved that the Skulduggery he was in was not the Burt Reynolds film about little fuzzies in the jungle which is a REALLY bad film. (I thought it was a rip-off of H. Beam Piper but apparently the novel it's based on is older.) Remember the Reynolds film has two l's.
The Thewlis film was a TV movie and is apparently unavailable. |
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| Syd |
| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:44 am |
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Befade wrote: Quote: Who says? Sorry, but you guys would be much more convincing saying you found it more indelible/iconic than pretending the general consensus does/will agree with you. I've heard almost no one mention Rourke's performance outside of this forum. Not at all sure it is more likely to go down in cinema history than Penn's.
It's going to be wonderful to see what Mickey does next. I do think Sean Penn is a great, perhaps fully realized talent......and by that I'm including his direction of Into the Wild and The Pledge.
The Wrestler was so tailor-made for Rourke, I'm having a hard time picturing him fitting another role so well. But he'll be in eight films over the next two years, including Sin City 2 and Iron Man 2. He'll be playing Whiplash, which is odd because the Marvel character was a woman. But apparently there was a male Whiplash too. If the character is similar, he'll have adamantium whips, much like Wolverine has adamantium claws. That should be sufficient to piece Iron Man's armor (unless Iron Man comes up with adamantium armor). |
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Rocky Laocoon foretold of Troy's doom, only to find snaky water. They pulled him in and Rocky can't swim. Now Rocky wishes he were an otter! |
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| Syd |
| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:51 am |
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Joined: 21 May 2004
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Or, come to think of it, he could borrow Captain America's shield, which is made of vibranium or buy some vibranium from the Black Panther's kingdom. Vibranium is even tougher than adamantium. (When you're a nerd, you have to know these things.)
PS: A few years ago, there was a story that they were going to do a Black Panther movie. It doesn't seem to be coming, which is too bad, because I always liked the character. (I see on Wikipedia that he married Storm of th X-Men, giving a new meaning to the term "power couple." Black Panther gets his powers from a special heart-shaped herb, which is only available to members of the Wakandan royal family, Barry Bonds, Rafael Palmiero, Alex Rodriguez, Roger Clemens, Sammy Sosa and Jose Canseco.) |
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Rocky Laocoon foretold of Troy's doom, only to find snaky water. They pulled him in and Rocky can't swim. Now Rocky wishes he were an otter! |
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| Joe Vitus |
| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:00 am |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
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Location: Houston
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Marc,
I appreciate the compliment.
It's hard for me to explain what I mean about making a movie by/for people outside the lead characters' psychology. I didn't mean that Aranofsky was a former wrester or that he has on obsession with the sport. I don't mean to imply DePalma was mixed up with Miami gangsters, either. But some movies go so far inside their worlds and their subjects that it's hard for outsiders to connect with them.
And really all this is beside the point, for me. I'm really saying we can only guess which of these performances will last longer, and that comparing them is, to me, a bit like comparing Brando in On the Waterfront to Olivier in Henry V. Both incontestably great, one more likely to appeal than the other depending on the viewer, and just about impossible to compare. |
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| billyweeds |
| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:57 am |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
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Location: New York City
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Joe--You're right about the performances being almost impossible to compare. But unfortunately that's what the Oscars force voters to do. And in a head-to-head contest (assuming the two performances were absolutely equal, which I don't, I thought Rourke's was superior), the facts are:
1) Penn already had an Oscar.
2) Careerwise, Rourke made an amazing comeback.
The combination of these circumstances would make the choice a no-brainer for me. Yes, you can say it doesn't matter how many Oscars an actor gets, but the emotional facts say Rourke should have won. |
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| Joe Vitus |
| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:25 am |
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| I jumped up and yelled with pleasure when Penn won. My emotional facts seem to be different than yours. I think it will be better if Rourke wins later in his rejuvenated career, rather than now for sentimental comeback-kid reasons. But contests like this—where I would have been happy for both to recieve the Oscar—are one of the big reasons I hate award shows. |
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You've got a great brain. You should keep it in your head.
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| lshap |
| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:42 am |
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Joe Vitus wrote: I jumped up and yelled with pleasure when Penn won. My emotional facts seem to be different than yours. I think it will be better if Rourke wins later in his rejuvenated career, rather than now for sentimental comeback-kid reasons. But contests like this—where I would have been happy for both to recieve the Oscar—are one of the big reasons I hate award shows.
See, and this is one of the big reasons I LOVE award shows! There's nothing like a close match between two equal opponents. And yeah, I know they're not opponents, just as I recognize your point about the fallacy of comparing art. But I still find it cool. |
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| lissa |
| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:33 am |
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I love awards shows - but I find it frustrating as well. The 1939 contest between Gone with the Wind and Wizard of Oz shows how impossible it is to compare two films in order to choose the best. The Golden Globes award for comedy and for drama, which is a cool way of doing things. But it also makes me wonder what criteria voters use to choose their "best of", and I think there are very few instances which have been that stark to me, where I've been able to discern why one film speaks to me more deeply than another, in any given "awards" year...
Otherwise, I just find it frustrating and wish they could compare apples with apples.
(of course, I also love awards shows for the fashion. Duh) |
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| Trish |
| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:09 am |
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2438
Location: Massachusetts
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Marc wrote: Quote: Who says? Sorry, but you guys would be much more convincing saying you found it more indelible/iconic than pretending the general consensus does/will agree with you. I've heard almost no one mention Rourke's performance outside of this forum. Not at all sure it is more likely to go down in cinema history than Penn's.
Time will will prove me right. You can bet on it Joe.
Penn's performance in MILK is not even among his best. I thought he did better work in AT CLOSE RANGE, BAD BOYS, THE FALCON AND THE SNOWMAN, FAST TIMES, Hurlyburly.
I liked his more subtle work in 21 Grams |
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| bocce |
| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:02 pm |
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Joined: 24 May 2004
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sean penn was also the best part of THE THIN RED LINE amongst a bevy of noteworthy character actors and leads...
just like no one does stressed out better than van heflin or robert ryan, nobody does burnt out like sean penn... |
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| Trish |
| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:18 pm |
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Joined: 21 May 2004
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Location: Massachusetts
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Trish wrote: Marc wrote: Quote: Who says? Sorry, but you guys would be much more convincing saying you found it more indelible/iconic than pretending the general consensus does/will agree with you. I've heard almost no one mention Rourke's performance outside of this forum. Not at all sure it is more likely to go down in cinema history than Penn's.
Time will will prove me right. You can bet on it Joe.
Penn's performance in MILK is not even among his best. I thought he did better work in AT CLOSE RANGE, BAD BOYS, THE FALCON AND THE SNOWMAN, FAST TIMES, Hurlyburly.
I liked his more subtle work in 21 Grams
I should have said liked "best" - I certainly didn't dislike his perfromance in Milk or those other films (although I have to say I wasn't that thrilled with his performance in Mystic River which won him his first oscar - the fact that he was also in 21 Grams that same year and his other acting performances made the win somewhat okay with me, however) |
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| billyweeds |
| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:25 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
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Location: New York City
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| I agree that Mystic River was the rare unsatisfactory Penn performance. And I agree that Carlito's Way was one of his best, along with At Close Range, Fast Times at Ridgemont High, and the shamefully neglected Bad Boys. |
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