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| Earl |
 Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:50 pm |
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Joined: 09 Jun 2004
Posts: 2621
Location: Houston
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yambu wrote: It's not about a head count, Earl. I know Marc was not being aggressive. But acknowledge that there are people who take unqualified offense at the use of the word. I'm one of them.
OK. I acknowledge that there are people who take unqualified offense at the word and that you are one of them. That was apparent when you agreed with Lissa's stance, so I'm not sure why you're asking me to acknowledge the obvious. And in your comment which I quoted above, you ackowledged that Marc wasn't being agressive.
There. We've ackowledged the hell out of this situation. We cool? |
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| yambu |
| Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:53 pm |
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Joined: 23 May 2004
Posts: 6441
Location: SF Bay Area
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| Oh, yeah! We cool. |
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| marantzo |
| Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:24 am |
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Marc, I laughed. What's unusual is that prick and cunt are the same thing regarding the two genders, but cunt is actually an uglier word for some reason. I guess cunt has a harder (harsher) sound because calling some guy a prick usually means he's some kind of jerk, but calling a woman a cunt usually sounds like she is some kind of vicious hateful person. And you can't use pussy to describe a woman because that is reserved for a man. 
If anyone here has read Joyce's Ulysses you'd know that there is a character named Cunty Katey (or Kate, I don't remember). If it's good enough for Joyce, it's good enough for Campbell.
I haven't liked Tiger from day one and I haven't liked Kobe from day one. They are not nice people. Pricks. |
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| Joe Vitus |
| Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:17 am |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 14498
Location: Houston
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| I don't think "cunt" is the least bit more offensive than "dick" but there's still a gender thing where insulting a woman, or equating her derisively with her anatomy, is considered much worse than doing the same to a man. I happen to think the reaction is more sexist that the word that inspires it. |
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| billyweeds |
| Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:25 am |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 20618
Location: New York City
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Joe Vitus wrote: I don't think "cunt" is the least bit more offensive than "dick" but there's still a gender thing where insulting a woman, or equating her derisively with her anatomy, is considered much worse than doing the same to a man. I happen to think the reaction is more sexist that the word that inspires it.
Word, word, word. Bravo, Joe! |
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| whiskeypriest |
| Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:50 am |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 6916
Location: "It's a Dry Heat."
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billyweeds wrote: Joe Vitus wrote: I don't think "cunt" is the least bit more offensive than "dick" but there's still a gender thing where insulting a woman, or equating her derisively with her anatomy, is considered much worse than doing the same to a man. I happen to think the reaction is more sexist that the word that inspires it.
Word, word, word. Bravo, Joe! |
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| marantzo |
| Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:02 am |
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For me as I suggested earlier, is that the word cunt just sounds worse. We should use quim or pudunda or snatch (well I'm not sure about snatch) or some other tried and true references. 
Speaking of which, what the hell happened to clamface? I keep wondering and worry. |
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| Syd |
| Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:03 am |
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Site Admin
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 12890
Location: Norman, Oklahoma
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One of the advantages of Wikipedia is that you can read articles on four-letter words. |
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| yambu |
| Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:50 am |
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Joined: 23 May 2004
Posts: 6441
Location: SF Bay Area
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marantzo wrote: ....If anyone here has read Joyce's Ulysses you'd know that there is a character named Cunty Katey (or Kate, I don't remember).... |
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| Joe Vitus |
| Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:16 am |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
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Location: Houston
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billyweeds wrote: Joe Vitus wrote: I don't think "cunt" is the least bit more offensive than "dick" but there's still a gender thing where insulting a woman, or equating her derisively with her anatomy, is considered much worse than doing the same to a man. I happen to think the reaction is more sexist that the word that inspires it.
Word, word, word. Bravo, Joe!
Thank you. |
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| lady wakasa |
| Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:29 am |
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 5911
Location: Beyond the Blue Horizon
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My only 2 cents on this - and I will preface this by saying I *know* Marc was joking, but I felt Marj really had to weigh in about it:
We *HAD* this discussion before. I thought the upshot was that the word wasn't going to show up. Apparently either I was wrong, or that discussion was forgotten.
Replace the word with any other from the usual suspects (kike, nigger, spic, etc), and get back to me whether it's okay if it were meant as a joke.
And I'm sorry, joe, but the "people taking offense are the ones with the issue" really really really sounds like the "blame the 'victim'" game. You don't like it? You don't feel comfortable about it? It's been used as a weapon against you in the past? Well, your objection to it must be your fault!
This is really giving me a lot to think about. Not least of which is that the newbie count is still at one (and I do like reading your posts, Mirgun).
That is all I'm saying on the matter. |
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http://www.wakasaworld.com |
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| Syd |
| Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:30 am |
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Joined: 21 May 2004
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Location: Norman, Oklahoma
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yambu wrote: Earl wrote: Marc wrote: I can't believe I have to explain this to a roomful of smart adults.
You don't have to explain it to a roomful of adults. Near as I can tell, only two of those who have commented so far took offense..... It's not about a head count, Earl. I know Marc was not being aggressive. But acknowledge that there are people who take unqualified offense at the use of the word. I'm one of them.
I'm another (when it's used to describe a person other than Ann Coulter, who's earned it). And I'm also offended by the idea that the person who has been offended is somehow guilty of something rather than the offender. Lissa has a perfect right to express her offense. Marc, you owe Lissa an apology. No more self-righteous protests, just apologize. You're the offender here, not her. |
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| Joe Vitus |
| Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:37 am |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
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Location: Houston
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That everyone has a right to be offended does not mean everyone is owed an apology when offended. I like Lissa a lot, but I do not believe she's owed an apology. Especially as the comment was not directed at her.
And the Ann Coulter comment, joke or not, just shows what a silly double standard hovers around the word. Either it's fit to be used for any woman who irritates one (as "dick" is for any man) or it should not be used at all. |
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| Syd |
| Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:38 pm |
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 12890
Location: Norman, Oklahoma
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Joe Vitus wrote: That everyone has a right to be offended does not mean everyone is owed an apology when offended. I like Lissa a lot, but I do not believe she's owed an apology. Especially as the comment was not directed at her.
And the Ann Coulter comment, joke or not, just shows what a silly double standard hovers around the word. Either it's fit to be used for any woman who irritates one (as "dick" is for any man) or it should not be used at all.
It's a joke, but Ann Coulter is a hatemonger who uses her sexuality to promote her nastiness. That makes it more appropriate than using it for, say, Jean Schmidt, who doesn't. |
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| Marc |
| Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:04 pm |
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Joined: 19 May 2004
Posts: 8424
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Marj has made it clear that she was NOT offended because she understood that no offense was intended. If Lissa hadn't called attention to my joke it would have gotten exactly the response it got at the time it was posted, which was nothing.
As to the issue of newbies not posting, I know all of the new people that registered. I can assure you that they are familiar with my style and are sophisticated enough to know a joke when they see one. They're not posting for reasons that have nothing to do with one comment that I'll bet not a single one of them saw. They're not lurking here. They're not interested. We all discuss films on Facebook.
And I agree with Joe that there is a double standard here. Joe was not offended by Gary's (deliberately un pc) joke about gays.
Lissa stated
Quote: that word is the most vile and offensive to any women, no matter how liberal she might be with the language.
That is simply not true. Marj,yes MARJ, stated that while the word wasn't among her favorites it didn't really bother her. Particularly because she understood my INTENT. And doesn't INTENT make all the difference. No word is inherently bad. INTENT makes the difference. Even the word "nigger" (perhaps the vilest of words) has been appropriated and transformed by Black people so that now it can be used in ways that it was never used before, even as a term of endearment - you're my nigger".
IT'S ALL ABOUT INTENT.
Perhaps some women feel that it is wrong for a man to use "cunt" in ANY context. I can understand that. But, disagree. As a fan of Henry Miller's and Charles Bukowski, I know the word can be used in ways that titillate, offend and induce laughter. I wouldn't want to take that word away from them.
"What I cannot love, I overlook." Anais Nin
I wonder how Anais responded to her lover Henry Miller's liberal, and often derogatory, use of the word.
If nothing else, this discussion has made me re-examine a word that I thought I thoroughly understood. It's a good sign that words still have the power to incite passion. In a culture where most things have "flattened out",
a culture in which people have grown numb, I embrace anything, even the vile, if it compels us to feel and to be outraged. Where to draw the line? At actual physical abuse. In the context of art, in the context of serious discussion, and in the context of humor, the latitude given language must be wide. Those are my thoughts.
ps - a good friend of mine, an editor at Rolling Stone, said he has never used "cunt" in a derogatory fashion until recently. He made an exception in describing Sarah Palin. |
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