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marantzo
Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:55 am Reply with quote
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Quote:
Let the Red State losers do without.


The downside of that is that the lower middle and lower income population of those states, which represent a lot of people (who don't seem to take much interest in voting) will be the ones to suffer if the state refuses the public option. The upside is that if they can actually get off their asses and vote in numbers, they could actually vote out the right wingers that screwed them.
marantzo
Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:36 am Reply with quote
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Sullivan is definitely idiosyncratic. At times he displays a definite conservative streak, and I've also read him when he seems to give the Catholic church a pass on some of their more questionable initiatives. He is an unrepentant Gay man but also seems to be a devout Catholic. Unusual combination.

Christopher Hitchens seems to be the Tweedledee to Andrew Sullivan's Tweedledum. If that is an apt analogy.
gromit
Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:03 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 8572 Location: Shanghai
JEB Bush wandering around loose:

Quote:
"The budget deficit, if sustained over the long haul, is perhaps our greatest challenge as a nation...there are deficits as far as the eye can see, not just this year, but for the next 10."


He might notice that by coincidence a huge budget deficit as far as the eye can see was the legacy of both his father and his brother. Under Clinton, it mysteriously went into surplus, and W then handed it back to the plutocrats. And now when Obama is left to clean up the mess, it's time to worry about deficits again.

Now I'm wondering how Bush might have caused that acne, because a good case could be made for Bush undercutting a US Olympic bid.
Bush undermined the US image abroad, alienated "Old Europe" the main voters with his cowboy diplomacy and war, while sinking America into a financial near-Depression which makes a US Olympics look less promising.
But of course we all know that Obama blew it.
Of course, it's the Repugs way of constraining Dem policies and spending.

More JEB:
Quote:
"I was on the plane yesterday coming up to Washington and I heard someone complain that their child's acne was because of George Bush. Of course last week the Olympics didn't come to Chicago, that was my brother's fault.


If the GOP field is weak, JEB might run in '12.
Who's he got to worry about? Romney?

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Joe Vitus
Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:58 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 14498 Location: Houston
marantzo wrote:
Christopher Hitchens seems to be the Tweedledee to Andrew Sullivan's Tweedledum. If that is an apt analogy.


I think so.

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daffy
Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:27 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 1939 Location: Wall Street
marantzo wrote:
Sullivan is definitely idiosyncratic. At times he displays a definite conservative streak, and I've also read him when he seems to give the Catholic church a pass on some of their more questionable initiatives. He is an unrepentant Gay man but also seems to be a devout Catholic. Unusual combination.

Christopher Hitchens seems to be the Tweedledee to Andrew Sullivan's Tweedledum. If that is an apt analogy.

Sullivan is conservative, but often with a healthy dose of pragmatism, which is why he supported Obama for president. He considers himself a Thatcher Tory, not a Republican or neocon. He is also an English, gay, practicing Catholic. He has consistently railed against the Catholic church about its handling of the sex abuse scandals, to the extent that he has said that Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict, has blood on his hands because of his participation in the cover-up, a claim Sullivan has never backed down from.

And quite often he's right.

For more on his views about Obama, gay rights, The Human Rights Campaign, and his criticism of Obama's speech last Saturday, you have to read more:

Quote:
The Battered Wife Syndrome Of The Human Rights Campaign [this was before the speech]

Readers know I've long been highly critical of the Human Rights Campaign, because I believe they get nothing much done, and have been co-opted by the Democratic party establishment, and have sucked resources out of local gay groups and states who really are creating change, and because of their insufferable smugness, eagerness to take credit for work others do, and Rotary Club dinners that often form their only seriously organized activity. That's a little unfair because they do have good people working for them, they have made real strides in local organizing, they have trained gay people to lobby, and they do help eventually in Congress (such as on removing the HIV ban). I do not want to tar with one brush many well-intentioned people working for them or with them. But their leaders are just so passive, weak-kneed and apologetic, you could mistake their balls for a couple of peas.

This split in the gay movement is not new - if you saw the movie Milk, you could see the same tension HRC between those who wanted to stand up and fight for equality and those who wanted to offer milquetoast, semi-closeted incrementalism with straight power. There's a place for both wings, of course, and most civil rights movements have included both.

This weekend, these two tendencies will collide together in DC. Thousands of gay, lesbian, transgender and straight allies will be descending on this town for a classic march to express anger, commitment and seriousness to equality. At the same time, one thousand wealthy, tuxedoed, Democratic party donors will be at the Washington Hilton for the HRC dinner of dinners (which tend to be fabulous and fucking endless). I don't fully feel a part of either camp, but I will not attend the dinner and I will march with my fellows and friends. Why? Because of letters like this from Joe Solmonese, head of HRC, that was sent out this week.

I was sent it last night and my first question back was: is this a hoax? It has to be a hoax, right? Joe Solmonese isn't that much of a tool, is he?...

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/10/the-battered-wife-syndrome-of-the-human-rights-campaign.html

Quote:
Live-Blogging The HRC Dinner

...8.53 pm. His major achievement - the one thing he has actually done - is invite gay families to the Easter egg-roll.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/10/liveblogging-the-hrc-dinner.html#more


Quote:
Much Worse Than I Expected

All I can say is: the president gave a speech he could have given at any point in the last three years. No one in that room could disagree with any of the things he said. I sure don't (with the exception of the hate crimes hooey). And he said it well and movingly. Like we didn't know he could do that.

But the point of electing a president who pledged to actually do things is to hold him to account, and to see if he is willing to take any risk of any kind to actually do something. I had a few prior tests of his seriousness or signs that he gets it, a few ways to judge if this speech had anything new or specific or clear. He failed every test....

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/10/much-worse-than-i-expected.html#more


Quote:
One Last Thing, Mr President
If you believe it is wrong to fire people from their jobs solely because they are gay, as you said Saturday night, stop doing it.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/10/one-last-thing-mr-president.html

Quote:
The White House Denies ...

They're walking back the "pajamas" smear. I wonder who it was. Of course, in today's Washington journalism, where anonymity is granted to the powerful for virtually any spin they want to deliver (yes, that means you, John Harwood), we'll never find out. It reeks of Rahm to me. But Greg Sargent also reiterates the untruth that support for civil rights and outrage at HRC's sell-out is somehow only "on the left." The gay conservative and independent bloggers feel exactly the same way. Log Cabin Republicans and gay Independents are fully behind the demands of this "left fringe". Which means it is not a left-fringe, unless you have been marinated in Beltway cynicism too long.

As for a "closely divided" country, here is the latest Gallup polling data on gays in the military:

Americans are six percentage points more likely than they were four years ago to favor allowing openly gay men and lesbian women to serve in the military, 69% to 63%. While liberals and Democrats remain the most supportive, the biggest increase in support has been among conservatives and weekly churchgoers -- up 12 and 11 percentage points, respectively.

60 percent of weekly church-goers are more against discrimination against gay service members than Joe Solmonese, head of the largest gay rights group. This White House is to the right of 58 percent of self-described conservatives and to the right of 69 percent of the population as a whole. Obama's base in refusing to end "Don't Ask Don't Tell" is now the religious right, and even more and more of them oppose the policy. Meanwhile, the actual generation that elected him, that built an Internet movement that was critical to his success, is dismissed in this cowardly fashion by someone who lives in 1993 for ever.

This is the Clinton Syndrome. Never again. End the ban now.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/10/the-white-house-denies-.html

When you see where he's coming from you can see how comments like this ring hollow:
Quote:
I would have thought it impossible for Barack Obama to top himself. But tonight he did. His "gay" speech is his new finest hour. There has seldom been a more important speech.

Sullivan is saying "nice speech, Mr. President, but we want something done." I don't blame him.

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Joe Vitus
Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:39 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 14498 Location: Houston
Why is there no story on the "One Last Thing, Mr. President" link? It's the one thing I questioned Sullivan on, and it looks like the link is no longer active.

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daffy
Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:46 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 1939 Location: Wall Street
Joe - It works fine for me. But no need to look: I quoted the entire post. He's talking about Obama's actions (or lack thereof) as Commander-In-Chief.

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gromit
Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:40 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 8572 Location: Shanghai
I didn't read the article/opinion, but the headline made me chortle:
Obama Fails to Win Nobel Prize in Economics

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gromit
Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:28 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 8572 Location: Shanghai
Olympia Snowe backs the Buacus bill in committee. I guess that's a good thing.
I suppose it makes it less likely there is a GOP filibuster, and the subsequent need for the Dems to stick together. Not sure how it could affect the final bill, which will hopefully have a public option and be more comprehensive.

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marantzo
Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:02 pm Reply with quote
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How could it not be more comprehensive? The Baucus Bill is a useless piece of crap. I'd rather it were voted down.
carrobin
Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:50 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 7677 Location: NYC
The fact that Congress is still trying to maneuver an unwieldy, complicated, controversial healthcare bill into law despite the fact that it won't cover everyone and it won't save any money just confirms my longstanding belief that most of the Democrats are either dead stupid or dead greedy, or both. (I already know the Republicans are.) Now that the Democrats know that the Republicans aren't going to approve anything they offer, and the insurance companies have joined the chorus with their threats to raise premiums if more people aren't forced to buy their product, the Democats should dig in their heels and say, Well, let's go for Medicare for All! What's to lose (besides their beloved lobbyist money)? And so much to gain!

I wish I could stop reading about these people. It's stressful. But I can't resist. Like the cliche goes, you shouldn't watch sausage being made--but this sausage is lumpy, bad-smelling, and ultimately poisonous.
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marantzo
Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:08 pm Reply with quote
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Car, my thoughts exactly and if the NYT readers are any example of how the Dem public thinks, then we are in the majority by a large margin.

Pathetic, isn't it?
Syd
Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:25 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 12517 Location: Norman, Oklahoma
I remember Sullivan pushing the Trig-is-not-Palin's-baby thing beyond reason, at which point I stopped listening to him.

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Joe Vitus
Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:58 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 14498 Location: Houston
Well, Sullivan has written about bare-backing because we've reached "the end of the plauge." He was writing this 5-10 years ago. It was so stupidly irresponsible that I've had trouble respecting him ever since.

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gromit
Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:18 am Reply with quote
Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 8572 Location: Shanghai
Political Trivia:

Who was the first non-Caucasian to win the Nobel Peace Prize?

(and organizations don't count, I want an actual person).

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