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yambu
Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:11 am Reply with quote
Joined: 23 May 2004 Posts: 6441 Location: SF Bay Area
billyweeds wrote:
Until well into the 80s, I would regularly cross the street (a block in advance so as not to seem too "obvious" about it) the moment I saw a group of black guys coming my way. Racist? Without a doubt. And, at the time, knee-jerk. I'm not proud of it, and am just grateful that time and circumstance have changed my ways.
One circumstance being the dramatic lowering of NY crime.

But we are close in age, and I think we're on roughly the same path as to this. I consider myself a recovering racist.
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daffy
Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:14 am Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 1939 Location: Wall Street
jeremy wrote:
I think the Republicans forgot one of the basic rules of modern election campaigns: sieze the centre. Palin may have energised The Republican core constituency, but, as her true colours became evident, she put off lots of other potential voters. It will be a disaster for the Republicans if they select Palin or a Palin-type candidate next time out.

And yes, I have changed my tune.

I see Karl Rove is trying to claim some credit for the success of the Democrats campaign, suggesting that they have copied many of his methods. I think he flatters himself. Whereas this time out the Democrats have built a genuine broad-based coalition for change , Karl Rove’s main tactic was to demonise and smear the opposition. He succeeded in getting the white working class to vote against their own interests out of fear.

Rove’s true legacy is a shrinking and nasty support base that chants ill-thought out mantras that are often code for prejudice. The Republican Party no longer has any intellectual credo or credibility. It has pandered to the social conservatives and his now mired in their politics. The neocon and libertarians wings of the party must feel ill at ease now.

I agree with much of what you say, except for the bolded. The libertarians have been holding their noses for a long time now, even during the Reagan years. The Republicans have never embodied their ideals; they were just closer (in some ways) than the Democrats.

And unless I mistake your meaning, you have your definition of neocons wrong: Rove/Cheney/Bush is the neocons; they are the very definition of everything neocon, and the neocons worship everything about them, including their social conservatism. The neocons are only ill at ease now because they are losing.

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whiskeypriest
Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:18 am Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 6916 Location: "It's a Dry Heat."
daffy wrote:
And unless I mistake your meaning, you have your definition of neocons wrong: Rove/Cheney/Bush is the neocons; they are the very definition of everything neocon, and the neocons worship everything about them, including their social conservatism. The neocons are only ill at ease now because they are losing.
Actually I think to be a "neocon" you technically at one time had to be liberal.

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jeremy
Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:22 am Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 6794 Location: Derby, England and Hamilton, New Zealand (yes they are about 12,000 miles apart)
I am happy to be corrected on these issues - my definitions may off. I guess I had the Neocons down as less isolationist (albeit unilateralists) and more libertarian (or even liberal in the British sense of the word) than the 'small town' or evangelical type social conservatives.

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yambu
Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:52 am Reply with quote
Joined: 23 May 2004 Posts: 6441 Location: SF Bay Area
marantzo wrote:
...Hey, what if Obama were a Catholic? Laughing
That's not funny. He's a Muslim.
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daffy
Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:02 am Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 1939 Location: Wall Street
whiskey, I think at one time that was true, but now it's just anyone who drank the Kool Aid. Even the National Review has lost any degree of integrity it may once have had.

Also, jeremy, I should mention that libertarians are a very small segment of the U.S. population. There are many who think they are libertarian because they like to think of themselves as being something of a (dare I say it?) "maverick", but when pressed to be specific on their views they usually turn out to be something like a Reagan conservative except they believe more in the separation of church and state.

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seagull
Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:21 am Reply with quote
Joined: 11 Jul 2008 Posts: 1525 Location: Philadelphia PA
yambu wrote:
marantzo wrote:
...Hey, what if Obama were a Catholic? Laughing
That's not funny. He's a Muslim.


shia or sunni?

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gromit
Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 2:02 am Reply with quote
Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 9008 Location: Shanghai
Well, I think the libertarian ideas of less gov't and less taxes have resonated with many. Spread largely by conservative talk radio, even Obama is a tax cutter these days.

My father considers himself a libertarian and loves to go on and on about gov't waste and so-called nanny laws and corrupt deals. (Corporate waste and fraud and corruption generally stay private ... until they explodes into sight). But many (most?) don't follow libertarian ideas through in other areas, such as legalizing drugs, allowing abortion, etc. My father is a Nader support -- he feels Nader's honest -- even though Ralphie boy is arguably responsible for more gov't regulation than any one man in US history.

Of course, Bush and the neo-cons have really tarnished the conservative brand, so many conservatives are re-branding as libertarians, much the way many liberals morphed into progressives the past decade or two. If those on the right want smaller gov't, I favor cutting the military budget and ending the wars.

My simple political formula has long been that I want less gov't regulation of personal freedoms, but more regulation of corporate doings. I think the Dems by and large meet that, while the Repubs like it the other way around -- regulating personal choices while favoring business deregulation.

There's no greater, and more harmful, government interference in the market economy than with regard to drugs. I wonder if President Obama will wade in to the Drug War debate. Probably better as a second term matter, but the percent of people we have locked up for non-violent crimes, plus the violence created by Drug Prohibition, are extreme and barely civilized. Prohibition was a failure in the 20's and led to an era of lawlessness, and Prohibition has been a failure for the last 25 years leading to high crime rates and lawlessness.

Of course, black males are disproportionately affected, tax money is wasted on imprisonment and judicial proceedings, police resources are diverted from true crimes, tax revenues from legalized drugs could be significant, large numbers are denied voting rights, inmates don't pay taxes (or compete for jobs), etc. A lot of issues to be unspooled, along with vast evidence that the current system is a tremendous failure.

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whiskeypriest
Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:41 am Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 6916 Location: "It's a Dry Heat."
daffy wrote:
whiskey, I think at one time that was true, but now it's just anyone who drank the Kool Aid. Even the National Review has lost any degree of integrity it may once have had.

Also, jeremy, I should mention that libertarians are a very small segment of the U.S. population. There are many who think they are libertarian because they like to think of themselves as being something of a (dare I say it?) "maverick", but when pressed to be specific on their views they usually turn out to be something like a Reagan conservative except they believe more in the separation of church and state.
Scratch a Libretarian, find a Brown Shirt. Most of the people I've met who claim to be Libretarian want the government of their back, but have no real interest in yours.

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seagull
Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:59 am Reply with quote
Joined: 11 Jul 2008 Posts: 1525 Location: Philadelphia PA
im just a sexual libertarian. im socially lberal, fiscally conservative and pro- palin nudity.

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seagull
Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:27 am Reply with quote
Joined: 11 Jul 2008 Posts: 1525 Location: Philadelphia PA
is it just me or is the mc cain campaign rallies looking like a village people concert?

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carrobin
Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:48 am Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 7795 Location: NYC
A few years ago, a friend I used to work with told me that another guy we worked with nearly got beat up in Harlem when he and some fellow libertarians started handing out toy guns to kids in a black neighborhood. Protesting the new law against toy guns that look real, of course. It was the kids' mothers who got upset and chased them away.

I've never understood the "drug war." Except that a lot of people make a lot of money on it, so there's probably some kind of underground lobbying going on.
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lady wakasa
Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:53 am Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 5911 Location: Beyond the Blue Horizon
whiskeypriest wrote:
Scratch a Libretarian, find a Brown Shirt. Most of the people I've met who claim to be Libretarian want the government of their back, but have no real interest in yours.


Nah, can't agree. There are a lot of true Libertarians in these parts - I think it's that the NY Libertarians are either the largest independent party in NYS or the largest Libertarian party in the country - and the real ones around here who aren't involved with the party vote Republican because it's the closest they're going to get in a viable candidate. (I disagree with that; they could make big inroads at least on a local and state level if they did vote their party.) They aren't social conservatives; they really don'i care about abortion, etc.

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mo_flixx
Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:17 am Reply with quote
Joined: 30 May 2004 Posts: 12533
I can't remember radio commentator Thom Hartmann's exact line about Libertarians but it's something like "they're Republicans who want to smoke pot." Meaning...no gov't. interference but want all the goodies like drugs and sex.
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gromit
Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:27 am Reply with quote
Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 9008 Location: Shanghai
carrobin wrote:

I've never understood the "drug war." Except that a lot of people make a lot of money on it, so there's probably some kind of underground lobbying going on.


One rationale for criminalizing drugs I used to hear a lot was that it is to protect people from harming themselves, and to stop people from being useless citizens (ie heroin addicts won't work). But the solution of throwing them in jail seems obviously more harmful to users and ensures that they can't contribute to society. And they probably cost more in jail than on some sort of welfare.

But why should the gov't force people to be productive anyway? I think the corollary pro-criminalization argument is that drugs are too tempting and insidious (addictive) to allow people to choose. But again, how is incarcerating someone better than letting them become addicted?
The idea that drug users will commit crimes to get drugs is largely a manifestation of the inflated prices of drugs due to the criminal code.

Despite all the money spent on the War on Drugs, and all the wasted lives (from criminal violence and incarceration), the drug supply is pretty reliable and the demand seems mostly to shift slightly with demographic fluctuations.

Am I missing other arguments for why the government criminalizes certain drugs? Besides the obvious moral/religious stance that pleasure is to be negated.

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