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marantzo
Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 9:44 pm Reply with quote
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I think it's more dogma than tradition.

I heard a curious thing last night on late night radio. The host of the show was a free-thinker and taking calls from the listeners. They would phone with religious slants and he would argue the other side. They got onto to the subject of salvation the Judeo/Christian underpinning of western society. At one point the host said something like, 'Christians desire and seek ways of salvation and I'm sure Jewish people do also." He wasn't saying this in a derogatory manner. He was actually saying that he thought it was a nice thing. The only problem is that salvation is not any part of Judiasm.
mitty
Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 10:00 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 02 Aug 2004 Posts: 1359 Location: Way Down Yonder.......
marantzo wrote:
I think it's more dogma than tradition.



Thats how I meant tradition. As in dogma that the churches have made into traditions. "Church Doctrine". Which is kinda ironic seeing that Christ (in Mark, chap 7) told the Pharisees that it was in vain that they worshiped God as they held fast the traditions of men and teaching as doctrine the precepts of men. Christ constantly quoted the Old Testament. Here it was Isiah.

This reasoning could be transfered easily to the modern churches.
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Marj
Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:14 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 10497 Location: Manhattan
First let me say if there were ever a defense for Cathy's humanity, I think Mitty you may have just given it!!

But to use remorse as a reason for suicide? I disagree completely. I also fear another biblical discussion beginning to form. And while I don't have any problem with one per se, I do think considering we are all of different religions, we need to be careful.

I realize this book is ripe with religious references. And we are smart enough to take any of them further, and fly! However this is a discussion of East of Eden, and not religion so please let's be careful.
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mitty
Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:47 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 02 Aug 2004 Posts: 1359 Location: Way Down Yonder.......
Unfortunately, I believe remorse or guilt over things either done or not done is a major cause of suicide. But in Cathy's case, I feel it was the fear of going down the road of remorse. She was on the path, and did not like the view. And to take it even further, suppose, just suppose she did not, or could not see any forgivness for her actions. Which were terrible in the extreme. But actually, come to think of it, her children could not know about the worst of her crimes, could they. So it was she herself that could not forgive herself. I know I am taking this way out on a tangant, but thats the fun of discussions!
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Marj
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 12:11 am Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 10497 Location: Manhattan
It sure is. And since Steinbeck only hinted at a lot of Cathy's motives she is especially fun to try and figure out. Especially after Steinbeck questions his own "monster" assignation.

IMO, Kathy was evil and had to be in order for the parable to work. And as far as her suicide is concerned, control is often a motive for it. And that's something we know Cathy prized more than just about anything.

If Cathy was nothing else she was the ultimate control freak. They can be fun to read about. Not much fun to know one.
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mitty
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 2:43 am Reply with quote
Joined: 02 Aug 2004 Posts: 1359 Location: Way Down Yonder.......
Ah, now that is a motive I had not considered! But all her ruminations don't seem to back up that theory. Although I do like it.

Marj what I'd like to know is what is your take on Cal burning the money, and Lee's reaction to it? And why do you think Adam considered himself so pure that he could not profit from Cal's little business deal? Or did he?
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yambu
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 3:53 am Reply with quote
Joined: 23 May 2004 Posts: 6441 Location: SF Bay Area
The problem with ever-evolving biblical scholarship is that it tends to blow huge holes in long held interpretations. There has just been released a new translation of the Pentateuch, and it reveals (no pun intended) several rather major misinterpretations of Old Testament text by the King James version. As someone already pointed out, the King James is riddled with error.
Less controversial, at least for us four, is the whopper concerning the Koran. Islam has long taught that when a martyr dies and enters Paradise, he is awaited by forty virgins. Recent scholarship suggests that the martyr is instead awaited by forty RAISINS. I don't say who's right, but to my way of thinking, that's a significant difference which ought to be cleared up.

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marantzo
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:29 am Reply with quote
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yambu, I think it's supposed to be 72 virgins. I've heard that raisin thing being joked about, but I didn't realise that there was actually a basis for it other than the similarity of words. The virgin thing sounds just a tad sexist. Wink

Quote:
I do think considering we are all of different religions, we need to be careful.


No problem here, Marj, I don't hold to any religion. But I do think some are more ridiculous than others. And you can rest assured that when we tie the knot you won't have to convert to anything.

Suicide can often be triggered by pathological depression which has nothing to do with remorse or revenge or fear etc. It doesn't seem like Cathy shows any signs of depression though.
Speaking of which, I found the book quite depressing overall. I kept feeling as I read the book that I sure wouldn't want to live there, with these people. And I live in farm country. I have relatives who are farmers and live in a small town in Saskatchewan. The people there are interesting, lively and fun to be with. When I was in business many of my customers were farmers. They were likewise interesting and I remember many of them with great fondness. Nothing like the characters in this book. Maybe in those times and in that place it was that different, but I suspect that Steinbeck has put his own slant on these people to create the book that he wants. I can't believe most of these people or their actions. To me it's like a myth and not an entertaining one.
mitty
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:31 am Reply with quote
Joined: 02 Aug 2004 Posts: 1359 Location: Way Down Yonder.......
Marj I know you are comforted know when you and Gary are finally united in wedlock, you won't have to "convert". She said with her tongue planted firmly in cheek! LOL. Laughing

I agree that depression is a basic cause of suicide. But there many different reasons for said depression. And I firmly believe that remorse is one of those causes. Look at the mood of Cathy/Kate's life. A friend I was discussing the book with said that living with the knowledge (which we know from Steinbeck that she did have) of her difference from other people was enough to depress her. And I think that seeing the horrified look on Aron's face was enough to trigger all these feelings that she had blocked all those years to boil up all at once and overcome her.

The biblical references in the book are stretching it to say the least. Steinbeck seemed to depend upon the story of Cain and Abel way too much in my opinion. Look at life and literature in general. The bible has stories about people's lives, and any literature has the same. There was nothing special about this concoction. The way he mixed up Adam and Charles, and Cal and Aron was unsatisfying to my way of thinking. Its difficult for me to judge anything about siblings however. I am an only child, and don't really know how siblings interact. But it did not seem realistic to me. Do y'all think so? Confused

My father was one of four children, and they stuck tight to each other all their lives. So thats my example, if you will. I didn't see any sticking to each other with these people. At least not in the Trask's. The Hamiltons were stickers. But the "billed family" was, well actually almost creepy.
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mitty
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:35 am Reply with quote
Joined: 02 Aug 2004 Posts: 1359 Location: Way Down Yonder.......
yambu wrote:
Recent scholarship suggests that the martyr is instead awaited by forty RAISINS. I don't say who's right, but to my way of thinking, that's a significant difference which ought to be cleared up.


Laughing

Whether its 40 or 72, if its raisins, at least they'd be regular.



Sorry, I could not help myself...... Razz
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Marj
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 8:01 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 10497 Location: Manhattan
And if they were virgins we might be able to understand the large following!

Of course depression is a major cause of suicide. But just the other day I was talking to a nurse with a right to die group. I found what she said interesting. She said, that while there are a lot of depressed people who die as a result of suicide, often it is a mistake!

What she meant was, that for someone to actually make plans and make a decision to end their lives, it takes a lot of control. It takes a lot of determination and planning and in her opinion, depressed people rarely have the wherewithal to accomplish all of that.

It's easy for someone who is depressed to take a bunch of pills or to pull a trigger. But often that is more a cry for help or a release of anger than a real desire to end one's life. Of course there are exceptions. But aren't there always?

Off hand I can't remember how much planning went into Cathy's suicide. But I still believe she really wanted to end her life. And If she did, she would have to have displayed the same kind of control she did throughout it. It's totally fitting for her character and is IN character as well.
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marantzo
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 8:17 pm Reply with quote
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Quote:
What she meant was, that for someone to actually make plans and make a decision to end their lives, it takes a lot of control. It takes a lot of determination and planning and in her opinion, depressed people rarely have the wherewithal to accomplish all of that.


You didn't need a nurse, I could have told you that.

Cathy did show humanity, killing herself was the only nice thing she ever did.
Marj
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 8:26 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 10497 Location: Manhattan
Really! Gary, you never fail to surprise and delight me. But it's hardly the kind of thing that comes up in day to day conversations, is it?

"Cathy did show humanity, killing herself was the only nice thing she ever did."

Agreed!
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marantzo
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:25 pm Reply with quote
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Well Marj, I was only clinically depressed once in my life and that was the result of crashing after the effects of some over-recreational drugs wearing off. I remember thinking, "So this is what real depression is." You don't feel like doing anything. You are like a morose zombie. Planning anything is out of the question. Like you said, a minor action like swallowing pills or shooting yourself if you have a gun handy is about it. I even realised when I was in that state how one would feel like suicide, though it was a clinical observation and I wasn't the least inclined to do it myself. I just waited it out till it passed. I knew why I was in that state.

People who have never been truly depressed thinkm it is like being really sad. It's not.
mitty
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:14 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 02 Aug 2004 Posts: 1359 Location: Way Down Yonder.......
In re-reading the very end of East of Eden, I remember again why I so admired Lee. On p.600 when he forces Adam to verbalize his forgivness of Cal. It took a lot of courage and responsibility to force the issue in this manner. But Cal could not have lived a life in a full and rich way if it had not been done. It was what any father that loves his children would/should want.

Adam gave Cal his chance.
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