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| pedersencr |
 Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 1:29 pm |
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 921
Location: New Orleans
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yambu wrote: So that if you come back from Vera Cruz with an oversized sombrero, pink maracas, and a sarape depicting a grinning burro, .
Yambu,
But that's just what I did! So? 
Charles |
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| pedersencr |
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 1:43 pm |
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Joined: 21 May 2004
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Location: New Orleans
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yambu wrote: Just to finish the thought. For Humbert to be so observant of what is pretentious, ostentatious, what is kitsch, what is banal or vulgar - what is poshlostian, if you will - implies that he also knows what is aesthetically valuable and enduring. Yet there is not one hint about this side of him.
Yambu,
There's a brain teaser!
Since you ask, I was wondering what you make of it?
Did Nabokov -- the Great -- slip up? Leave one base unguarded? Or did his mask slip, and his actual voice come out through Humbert?
In Humbert's defense, I am loathe to offer, he could be eloquent, as in his three love declarations toward the end, but that's not the same thing you are pointing to.
Charles |
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| yambu |
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 2:16 pm |
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Joined: 23 May 2004
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Location: SF Bay Area
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| Nabokov slip up?? No, it's perfectly consistent. The discerning, snooty, Old World HH is incapable of enjoying a session with Proust, or a good piece of music, or beautiful surroundings, or interacting with others, or any of life's pleasures. He may know a good work of art on sight, but he never pursues such things, so obsessed is he with chasing false bliss. He is young, intelligent, good looking, well educated, bilingual, of some means, with a keenly developed taste for what is best in life. None of it means anything to him. |
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| pedersencr |
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 2:27 pm |
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Joined: 21 May 2004
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Location: New Orleans
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yambu wrote:
... you may want to move that stuff, and perhaps a wall hanging or two, from the den to the garage after reading about Charlotte's furnishings.
Yambu,
More seriously to your point, now.
I do agree that introspection is a good thing. And whether by seeing ourselves in the mirror (and seeing that belly I want to get rid of), or under the goad of satire and those wall hangings Humbert mentions, yes, there are ways we can "better" ourselves.
Perhaps this response falls into two parts. First what it was personally that annoyed me in his jabs. And I won't even offer elaborate defense against his observations. Facts are after all facts. Second, in the next post, some of his own attitudes that I take exception to, which make me less than enthusiastic to hear criticisms from him. In my old neighborhood it would have not have been "from him" but instead, "from the likes of him" 
So, about my background. We did have one of those rubber hoses he talks about. In a house built around the turn of the century, without a built-in shower, it was a luxurious do-it-yourself way to wash one's hair. Almost needless to say we lived in a blue-collar immigrant neighborhood and my father was a working man just like every one man on the block.
Later on, our own first apartment did sport prints of famous artwork on the walls, probably even van Gogh's "Arlesienne," (p. 36) and certainly Renoir's(?) girl with the watering can. I hope that merely 'having' such prints would survive a Humbert sneer, even if carrying on about them a la Charlotte (or especially Shelley Winters) would not, but one can never tell. Poshlost is such a 'one-up' kind of game.
Thirdly, I've always been a kind of collector (only child, you know) so a business trip to the Marshall Islands did allow me to bring home a Marshallese-hand-crafted model of an outrigger canoe with a single sail, and it did sit on the mantle in our house for a while.
And of course there was other stuff, from other trips. We have travelled the States also, as well as Nabokov, and there were always mementos to be picked up.
So, guilty to all charges, and in specific detail moreover. But I don't feel in the least apologetic. That's the way life went. Now it's books; and I am resisting DVD's.
But I think even Nabokov must know that it is impolite to be invited into one's house, only to proclaim "Boy, what a dump you live in." And that's the edge I can't shake.
Now on to the second post where I feel free to comment on his elitism, as long as he can comment on my poshlost.
Charles |
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| pedersencr |
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 3:13 pm |
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Continued:
I had no great personal problem with Nabokov's satire in the beginning, even with its evident applicability to my own background.
The single thing that first got my hackles up was the poke in the eye about even the "most inimical reader by now" certainly having realized it was Quilty. Well, I didn't realize it was Quilty, but I did realize that I felt a sharp stick in my eye coming up out of the pages of the very book I was reading.
A little later on, whether in Notes or Introduction (at places I can't find at the moment), I noticed the dismissive comment that there might be some "older, non-readers" who take exception to scenes with sex. And then after a bit, the remark from either Appel or Nabokov regarding pedophilia that "it is a cultural matter, not a literary consideration," or words to that effect.
Well, too bad guys (VN and AA). I don't too much like pedophilia, or especially the fact that you dismiss it so cavalierly, and I don't call myself an "older non-reader." Older maybe (but even that is offensive these days), and certainly not a non-reader (unless my lack of fluency in four languages makes me that, or my not having yet read all those books that Nabokov had devoured in various languages by age 15).
Maybe I am just the ultimate proletarian, just as he might be the ultimate aristocrat, but I don't think our two worlds will ever mesh, and as far as I am concerned that's too bad -- for him.
So, end of rant on why Nabokov hasn't quite appealed to me, even though there are other aspects of Lolita that are utterly amazing and fantastic, and even though I easily recognize that he and Lolita are truly as great as they are now acknowledged to be, and even though I freely add my own words of praise in endorsement of both those propositions.
Let the Freudians begin their dissection,
I feel better for having said all that,
Now I'll take the fangs out and get back to normal
Charles
(And I hope it is clear that none of my remarks are directed at any members of the forum. Please.). |
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| mitty |
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 5:47 pm |
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Joined: 02 Aug 2004
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Location: Way Down Yonder.......
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Charles
I don't think a true aristo would have the condesending attitude that Nabokov seems to have. It is the sign of a small mind at work. Narrow. Cold. No matter how much money, or how much in the way of family connections the so-called aristocrat possesses, it is their responsiblilty not to condesend to someone that has less money or connections. If I really want to be snotty, I would say that Nabokov is the vulgarian for such an attitude. |
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| pedersencr |
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:56 pm |
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mitty wrote: Charles
I don't think a true aristo would have the condesending attitude that Nabokov seems to have. It is the sign of a small mind at work. Narrow. Cold. No matter how much money, or how much in the way of family connections the so-called aristocrat possesses, it is their responsiblilty not to condesend to someone that has less money or connections. If I really want to be snotty, I would say that Nabokov is the vulgarian for such an attitude.
Mitty,
Your posts always have such a calming and balancing effect!
I don't really know what to say about Nabokov; I haven't yet got a good fix on him, never having read a detailed biography, for example. So I mention the scraps I find.
But I must add that he could be a very genial man, once he was satisfied that your literary credentials came up to his measure. I suppose the harshest thing I would say with my limited knowledge is that he was rather "lofty" and reserved and devoted entirely to his writing (and his summer butterfly expeditions).
He of course appears in Vera, but never front and center, except in a few unforgettable cases. She attended all his lectures, sitting down in the front row listening silently and intently, and very occasionally he would check a fact with her, or she would correct him. Occasionally she would give the lectures when he couldn't. (!)
He was apparently a very dynamic lecturer, getting into the story, and acting it out, and so on. Frequently enough he would be laughing so hard at the story he was telling that not a person in the room could understand a single word he was saying. Then she would motion to him and he would calm it down a bit. I would say it is hard to stay angry at a guy like that.
But, in terms of the aristocrat's obligation to make the other person feel comfortable, Vera and Vladimir were more withdrawn than that. His life was devoted to writing and she protected him like a hawk.
The stories in Vera just go on and on, one after the other,
Charles |
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| yambu |
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 7:33 pm |
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Joined: 23 May 2004
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pedersencr wrote: ......The single thing that first got my hackles up was the poke in the eye about even the "most inimical reader by now" certainly having realized it was Quilty. Well, I didn't realize it was Quilty....the dismissive comment that there might be some "older, non-readers" who take exception to scenes with sex. And then after a bit, the remark from either Appel or Nabokov regarding pedophilia that "it is a cultural matter, not a literary consideration," or words to that effect.......
As to the rest, Charles, I'm inclined not to be as tough on Nabokov as you and Mitty seem to be. I'll look for those cites (Are you sure he said "inimical"?), and if I find them, then I'll comment. |
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| pedersencr |
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 7:46 pm |
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yambu wrote: (Are you sure he said "inimical"?), and if I find them, then I'll comment.
Yambu,
I'll go looking also. They have to be there someplace. But, yes, I am pretty sure of inimical because it didn't seem to me like the right word for the context, which I suspect is the same reason for your question. Or maybe I just need new eyeglasses, but I did a double take each time I saw it.
We shall soon get a new estimate of the reliability of eye witness testimony, we shall.
And I really appreciate your detailed interest,
Charles |
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| mitty |
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 9:41 pm |
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Joined: 02 Aug 2004
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All I can say is that it is very difficult to know an obviously complex person such as Nabokov, even if you are on intimate terms with them. And to know someone from differing bios..........well nigh impossible. There are certain "givens". He was from at least a well to do family. To be driven out of a country under such circumstances has to be at the least heart wrenching. But I suspect he was an autocratic bugger to begin with, and was spoiled in his youth......outrageously. Which only compounded the basic personality.
I mean why is anyone or any animal for example, a cat the way they are? This cat Tuffy, that is taking up my desk at the moment, making it extremely difficult to see what the heck is going on, is aptly named. A friend found her in a parking (asphalt) lot, about 10 days old. Paw pads burnt to bleeding, underside of the tail burnt, it was mid-summer in New Orleans. Some nauseous creep that should be drawn and quartered, had dumped her there to die. If her basic personality was not so bloody pushy, and yes, autocratic she would not have survived.
So, you see, personality will either save or destroy animal or man.
OFFICIAL END OF RANT |
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| yambu |
| Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 1:14 am |
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Joined: 23 May 2004
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| We in this forum don't recognize Official Ends of Rants. I loved reading about Tuffy. and would like to hear more. We have a cat, who we call "the cat", who is afraid of the dark. Turn off the light to a room, and she's exiting ahead of you by a lot. But she's a supreme mouser - what Marj needs. |
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| mitty |
| Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 6:01 am |
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Yambu
Lets put it like this, my grandmother was known as The Cat Lady in our old neighborhood. Its genetic. But as my aunt always says, "If I see anyone dumping a cat here, I've got my shotgun ready, and it won't be the cat I'm shooting at!" Fortunately that was not tested!
Tuffy is 11 years old now, and just as pushy as ever. She ignores the other cats as though they do not exist, or she screams at them, whichever suits her mood. And the minute I open up the office/computer room, there she is, right in front of me.  |
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| mitty |
| Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 6:04 am |
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Joined: 02 Aug 2004
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| BTW, is your cat actually afraid of the dark, or just so nosey, she/he can't stand to miss what/where you are going? All I have to do is tap a can, and I have an audience! |
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| mitty |
| Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 6:14 am |
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Joined: 02 Aug 2004
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Another BTW. The record high temp here for today is 88. It looks close to breaking that today. The HEAT INDEX for today is 100-105............Is this really October? The first October we moved across the lake, it was 16 for a couple of days in a row. Talk about a contrast!  |
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| pedersencr |
| Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 6:18 am |
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maybe that's why I keep trying to think of Lolita as just an angel with a dirty face. 
