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billyweeds

Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 1:24 pm

Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 20618 Location: New York City

I had that same discussion over instant messages with my son-in-law last night. He kept calling Adriana an "idiot." And I kept defending her, just as if she were a real person. Which she sort of was to me.

lissa--I don't think Carmela's land is where Adriana was killed, but I would say that I don't think it's a coincidence the two plots of land look identical. In other words, Carmela's land grab is done over Adriana's dead body. Almost literally.

Kate

Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 1:26 pm

Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 1397 Location: Pacific Northwest

Lissa,

Something tells me you have a very forgiving nature. Perhaps idiot is too harsh, but her utter ignorance as to why helping the killer out was NOT OK had me shaking my head.

I also am not so sure she was certain Chris would go for it, her real fear of him leaving for smokes, to me, indicated that she was afraid that once he left her his head would clear and he would clear and he would change his mind - she was a little panicked that he was leaving.

Kate

Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 1:29 pm

Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 1397 Location: Pacific Northwest

A few too many "and he woulds" apologies all around. Really need to use that preview function.

Ghulam

Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 4:41 pm

Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 4742 Location: Upstate NY

I have now seen questions about whether Carmela's plot of land is the same place where Adriana was killed being raised in three different forums!

pedersencr

Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 5:14 pm

Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 921 Location: New Orleans

"So where am I coming from? -- Part 1"

Billy,
Lissa,
Am now back on line, after having driven back up from downstate, and having arrived in the middle of a high-power discussion, as I see. I also see now that my answer to the above question will fall into two parts, this being the first.

Having now seen the show (after we recovered from a power outage around here Sunday night), I see now that I was wrong in my surmise as to why Adriana had been killed. I had responded from the spoilers as if she had been the small change used to settle scores among the big guys. Clearly she came to her fate in a different way, and my guess was wrong.

However, the notion of treating people's lives as completely disposable, and as if they were worth no more than small change, in order to mediate disputes between big power guys really wasn't that far off! In fact, it was the very first alternative Johnny Sack suggested if Tony B. couldn't be found: "So give me one of your other relatives instead." Brrrrrr.

The second part of my response to your question is getting adjusted for events of last Sunday, and will be online soon enough. It is still a grumble about how women are treated in the show.

CU soon,
Charles

lissa

Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 5:51 pm

Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 2148 Location: my computer

Kate - maybe it's my forgiving nature, maybe it's just because I think Adriana was just going deeper and deeper. And if she didn't help the killers (putting myself into her poor, dead mind now), she'd have to incur the problems which would definitely arise if her club were raided by the Feds (if the murder were discovered which, she obviously surmised, would happen if she didn't hide the evidence). Again, it's just a case of someone being in over their heads, and powerless to do anything about it. How many battered women have we seen go back for more, how many times have we continued to ask ourselves, "why doesn't she just leave?" They don't leave because they don't believe they can...because they feel trapped, and that life is all they know, and leaving would be just too fearsome for them. Adriana was battered - both figuratively and literally, and yet her love for Chris overpowered her self-identity, her fight-or-flight instinct, and eventually, her sense of survival.

billy - I argue the same thing. Heck, I'm doing it now *grins* That they seem like real people to us? That is testament to the power of the writing and the actors, and the order of those two aspects is interchangeable.

_________________
Statistically, 6 out of 7 dwarfs aren't happy.

lissa

Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 5:53 pm

Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 2148 Location: my computer

billy, I believe you're right - while the land isn't the same (it would have to be too far out, where Sil took Adriana, now that I think about it), its similarity to her killing ground is not coincidence. NOTHING in this show is haphazard.

Have I mentioned how much I'm gonna miss it? *sighhhhhh*

_________________
Statistically, 6 out of 7 dwarfs aren't happy.

pedersencr

Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 6:14 pm

Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 921 Location: New Orleans

Lissa,
No I don't think you have mentioned how much you are going to miss it -- at least not since the last time Smile

One thing very noticeable to me was the intensity level in this show. Made it a totally super viewing experience (bet you never thought you'd hear that from me!!)

Sincerely,
Charles

pedersencr

Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 2:10 am

Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 921 Location: New Orleans

Billy,
Lissa,

Just lost "Where I am coming from -- part 2"
Composed a sort of lengthy post but found I had been logged off when I tried to preview it. Guess that's the unadvertised penalty for exceeding some limit or other.
But it will appear sometime, when I get back into the mood.

Now back to sleep,
Charles

pedersencr

Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 8:34 am

Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 921 Location: New Orleans

So where am I coming from?" -- Part 2

Billy,
Lissa,
Somewhat refreshed after a short night, I'll try the condensed answer to your'alls question.

First of all, allow me to suggest that I see two questions at issue, both of which seem to merge into one during our discussions of the Sopranos:
1. Is the Sopranos a great show?
2. Do I like the Sopranos?

First, I have already stated about 6 times in all these Sopranos forums that I think the Sopranos is a great show. So please let us try to agree to agree that the Sopranos is a great show.

Second, there are parts of it that are not my cup of tea, which is entirely my own personal opinion and not necessarily a criticism that the show is flawed in any way. I would suggest that perhaps we can agree to disagree about some of my personal reactions to the Sopranos.

Now onto answering the main question.

I have been interested in the quest for equality by women in our society since the beginning of the modern women's movement. In fact, I have always found myself much more sympathetic to women having the same opportunities for living their lives as men have always claimed for living their own lives. And I have always regarded male arguments that women just don't measure up for that degree of opportunity as foolish, stupid, and worse.

So, when I look at the Sopranos, I see women in terms not only of the strength or weakness of their characters, but also in terms of the roles and functions they have in moving the story forward.

When I look at the Sopranos, I see women in the roles that many men are already comfortable with, namely
1. Homemaking, child bearing and raising children, and
2. Sex objects galore, on display at the club, draped over men's arms at all male dinners, and willing to hop into Tony's bed whenever he has the whim.

I only see two women in roles outside of these:
3. An FBI agent, with a minuscule role in terms of time on screen, but possibly important eventually in being the means through which the entire mob is brought down, and
4. A psychiatrist, whose principal patient is still able to proclaim, even after all his so-called therapy, "I yam what I yam!"

And then I see women in roles that rub me the wrong way:
5. Women as objects to be regularly murdered, and I count three murders in about 9 episodes as being "regularly," and
6. Women as the butt of vulgar remarks, as when six stupid male incompetents sit around featherbedding the payroll at the construction site and trade moronic and vulgar one-line quips about women, mustaches and whiskers.

Maybe your view is that it is all authentic. For peace in the family of this Sopranos forum I won't necessarily disagree with that. However, I will say that, for my taste, "authentic" does not automatically mean "appealing."

So that is the short form of where I am coming from,
Sincerely, and with best wishes to you both,
Charles

yambu

Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 10:40 am

Joined: 23 May 2004 Posts: 6441 Location: SF Bay Area

When Tony and Carm were at the $600,000 lot, you could see a large home on the adjoining property, so I doubt if this is where Adriana got whacked.

Laura

Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 11:28 am

Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 1

Prior to last season, I only watched the Sopranos by default – when there was nothing else on or I only had a few minutes and the shrink was onscreen – because too often when I purposely tuned in, it was at some point of violence (mild or horrific) toward women that was truly unsettling. When I saw Adriana taken out the other night, I remembered why I didn't flock to this show at the beginning.

I began watching regularly last season because it seemed as though the female characters were getting stronger – not just Carmela (I loved Edie Falco from her Oz character) and Meadow and the psychiatrist but the others as well – and thus, they were becoming more interesting. To me, the show isn't about thugs killing each other based on some antiquated code of family loyalty (not to mention love of money). It's about the relationships developing over a long period and also about their individual transformations.

The writing is excellent. Also the acting. That's why I continue to watch. But I have never cared for the mafia genre and it has virtually nothing to do with my life experience. There are many times the show's subject matter makes me so angry I have to do something to wind down afterward – like switch over to some stand-up comedy for a while before I go to bed. Whenever somebody new comes on the scene and he or she does something incredibly naive, I always think, 'be careful – they're killers.'

They showed how little the female FBI agent understood the nature of the beast when she was worried about finding Adriana – the two male agents looked at each other and shook their heads. After all that, the female agent didn't realize that pushing Adriana to 'cooperate' was going to inevitably get her killed.

So is that realistic or misogynistic scriptwriting? A little of both, I'd say.

I was simultaneously pleased and saddened when Carmela realized she had no choice but to let Tony come back home – pleased because she did it on her own terms and she's gained a little power in their relationship, and saddened because it's true that she has no life outside of this one.

(Yes, the show is so good I often believe the characters are real.)

lissa

Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 1:29 pm

Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 2148 Location: my computer

Charles,

In this season, perhaps that is what you're seeing, but look at someone like Charmaine Bucco (Artie's ex-wife). She isn't a main character, but she is a peripheral, and a longtime (from season 1) fixture on the show. She runs, manages, and has even done cooking in her own restaurant (with her husband), and they cater outside the restaurant too. She is quite an interesting character, and one I wish had been more fleshed out. I understand that she doesn't figure in as prominently so she doesn't have the screen time the other women do, but she has strength (divorced Artie over his relationship with Tony Soprano, but remains in the restaurant they'd built together) and is a career woman who only wants to live well within her means. There were some tense times in Season 1 when she and Artie catered a party at the Sopranos' house, and Carmela treated her like the hired help (which she was, but - as was shown in the Dream episode - also high school friends of both Carm and Tony). But for the most part, I think Charmaine is a well adjusted woman whose strength would come out if she were given the part to play. She has come a long way, even in the limited time we've gotten to know her on screen.

Of course, it doesn't mean anything if I don't mention that Artie is the wuss of that couple. But still, we're talking women on the show, and she's not in any of the categories you mention.

_________________
Statistically, 6 out of 7 dwarfs aren't happy.

pedersencr

Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 1:41 pm

Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 921 Location: New Orleans

Lissa,
Thank you very much for your insightful and on-target reply -- as usual I might add.

While you have the topic on your mind, I was wondering if I might ask you whether what I call the murder of women on the show has been pretty typical throughout the five seasons, or whether it is something new this season? This is a simple request for your impression, not any attempt to start up a harangue or even necessarily a discussion on the matter.

And, in case you are wondering -- but I am sure your intuition already knows the answer Smile

-- my eyes will be glued to the set for the finale of the show that you got me interested in. For which many thanks.

Can't wait,
Charles

lissa

Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 2:09 pm

Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 2148 Location: my computer

Thinking about violence against women...I can't think of another time there were this many murders of women. Two seasons ago saw Ralphie murder Tracy, a dancer at the Bada Bing, and that was horrendously graphic. She was also pregnant at the time, so if you want to add insult to injury, so to speak...

Other than that, I can't think of other women being murdered - if anyone can jog my memory, I'd appreciate it.

But there was Jennifer Melfi's rape, which was a horror, graphically depicted in its execution as well as in her injuries afterward. And there has been the ongoing battering of women, Adriana most notably, but strippers and goomarahs of the moment, as well as Janice who was abused by her then-fiancé, Richie Aprile. Women have, as you point out, been treated as objects. But as I see it, it's a cultural thing. Doesn't mean it's right anymore than women are 2nd-class citizens to the ultra-Orthodox Jewish men, but it's just the way it is.

_________________
Statistically, 6 out of 7 dwarfs aren't happy.

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