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yambu
Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 9:27 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 23 May 2004 Posts: 6441 Location: SF Bay Area
Gulham, thanks for the Slate link. I agree with those guys over there, Vince Curtola as Johnny Sack is terrific. His barely contained anger fills any moment he's in. But the scene with Tony under the bridge reveals that this anger, and the rush of his newfound power, is going to undo him. All Tony wanted was his assurance that his cousin would die quickly, but Johnny dismissed it. Making powerful enemies unnecessarily shows poor management skills for a head thug. I'm not saying that Tony will be the instrument of his demise; more likely Johnny's own family eventually will pull him down.

I can't help my speculations. No other TV series compels me so constantly to outguess the script writers.
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billyweeds
Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 11:09 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 20590 Location: New York City
Something I've noticed subconsciously for a long time but just with this current episode was able to verbalize is the subtle but clear difference between mobsters like Tony S., Tony B., and Chris and mobsters like Johnny Sack and Phil. They all have the look of mobsters, but the former group have warmth in their eyes and family in their soul. The latter are dead of eye and cold within. The actors are cast brilliantly to make delineation and the excellence of the acting defines it further.
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billyweeds
Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 11:09 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 20590 Location: New York City
...make THIS delineation...
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billyweeds
Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 11:18 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 20590 Location: New York City
From the Slate article: "Did we note, for the record, just how monumental the loss of Adriana is? This is the biggest whacking in five seasons; it signals to me that the show is coming in for a landing (though since this IS The Sopranos, the sixth and final season won't be landing until 2006). Drea de Matteo, who played Adriana, has been integral to the show from the start; she was in some perverse way a voice of morality and common sense."
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Ghulam
Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 12:06 am Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 4739 Location: Upstate NY
Did you see the Sopranos stars on the "Top Ten" lineup on Letterman? They were hilarious.
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billyweeds
Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 1:03 am Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 20590 Location: New York City
Ghulam wrote:
Did you see the Sopranos stars on the "Top Ten" lineup on Letterman? They were hilarious.


What a great surprise that was, and, yes, hilarious.
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yambu
Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 2:20 am Reply with quote
Joined: 23 May 2004 Posts: 6441 Location: SF Bay Area
billyweeds wrote:
Something I've noticed subconsciously for a long time but just with this current episode was able to verbalize is the subtle but clear difference between mobsters like Tony S., Tony B., and Chris and mobsters like Johnny Sack and Phil. They all have the look of mobsters, but the former group have warmth in their eyes and family in their soul. The latter are dead of eye and cold within. The actors are cast brilliantly to make delineation and the excellence of the acting defines it further.


Yeah, society's scum vs. its scummy rivals. But be careful - this production machine is capable of giving you a five-minute vignette of, say, a Sack family picnic by the Hackensac River, that would belie your theory, and blur beyond use the distinction you are making. But I like your "dead of eye" category, where there dwell those characters on the edges of the story who, logistically, can not all be developed. Kind of like Brutus vs. some of the other conspirators.
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billyweeds
Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 7:39 am Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 20590 Location: New York City
Fascinating take on Carm and viewer reaction, from the New York Post:

http://www.nypost.com/entertainment/24680.htm
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Kate
Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 11:00 am Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 1397 Location: Pacific Northwest
This may be just my imagination, but I noticed that when Carm was with the counselor, she wore very sexy clothing - low cut blouses, etc. But with Tony she dresses much more conservatively. Even the closet scene, she seems very hesitant to be intimate with him.
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lissa
Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 11:34 am Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 2148 Location: my computer
Kate,

Yes, she was - seemingly - pulling away from Tony in the closet, but I think a lot of that was that awkwardness expressed at the dinner table. I'm pretty sure she'll warm up, or go back to old ways. As will Tony.

Her manner of dress could have to do with a few things. First of all, Bob made her feel special, wanted, desired, and like a woman for the first time in many many years, so she dressed the part. She was also on dates with him, so of course that would call for a different attire than would dinner at home. Secondly, she was in her house with Tony and her son, so dressing flirtatiously wouldn't have been appropriate. But in past episodes, when they'd go out as a couple, she definitely dressed in slinky outfits and the like.

Billy, I've noticed Johnny Sack's coldness from the start. He has always seemed to be an angry individual, with a hair trigger temper, but since Carmine died he has become bitter and brutally hard, with a temper to match. However, Tony's gang does have that softer look about them, and either it's really good casting (which it is) or our own perception (which figures in as well) or - big one here - great acting. We've always said how JG acts with his entire body, the eyes most especially. Well, here's proof positive.

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Kate
Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 11:38 am Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 1397 Location: Pacific Northwest
Lissa,

I am actually thinking of the dinner out with Tony when they first discussed getting back together. The dress she was wearing and her hair seemed very different than what she usually wears. Like I said, it is probably my imagination, but I think she is going back to Toney 'cause she really has no other choice. How can she have felt such revulsion towards him (like watching him jump into the pool) one minute and passion the next.
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lissa
Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 12:09 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 2148 Location: my computer
Thanks for the clarification, Kate, and you're right again - on both counts. She's definitely back with Tony for lack of options. She knows no one will see past her married name and she's been duped out of any lawyers, as they've all been corrupted against her case. So what other choice does she have? She's also playing it the way Carmela can - getting him to buy her that land. Their reconciliation talk was a business deal! But kudos to her, as she has shown him what she's made of. And whoa to Bob if Tony should ever find out Carmela slept with the man - remember Tony "bragging", "I'm the only one she's ever been with." ..?

Now, another factor comes into play with Carmela's dressing the way she has, with Tony...it's familiarity. She doesn't need to seduce or impress him. She dresses in more sedate outfits, ever the classy one, but sedate or casual, and that has a lot to do with familiarity. Not sure about all married women out there, but I don't dress to the nines anymore - no need. *grins*

I did notice that this particular episode had Carmela and Tony eating more than we've seen them do in the past - and the eating seemed to take on an important aspect, there were times where all you'd hear was the fork against the china, or the eating sounds people make. Almost as though they had to fill the space with activity, given their awkwardness.

Nice juxtaposition, though - there was that uncomfortable unfamiliarity and yet that sense of being "home" between them, throughout the show...even in the last scene, where Tony is visibly shaken by the events he knows have taken place (again - did Adriana get killed on that land?), Carmela is dreaming of her new venture, and there is still a distance between them, palpably so.

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lissa
Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 12:10 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 2148 Location: my computer
Addendum:

Her hair - YES, Kate - she'd been so hip with her hairdo lately, suddenly it was....nowhere. Very telling detail now that you point it out!

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Kate
Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 12:17 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 1397 Location: Pacific Northwest
Lissa - I too noticed the eating, I kept thinking Damn, these people are always eating and Tony needs to lay off the penne!

By the way, I watched again last night and boy did I miss alot re Adriana and the drug dealer. It is so telling how murder, drugs, etc are such a part of her life that she is truly confused as to why they don't understand why she helped him. However, no matter how much that life is what you know, she is also truly an idiot. I love her but she was an idiot. I did dig that catwoman outfit though.
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lissa
Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 1:05 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 2148 Location: my computer
I wouldn't go so far as to categorize Adriana as an idiot. I think she was in over her head. She fell in love with Chris, got into his way of life, and even before that was a member of a mobster family (wasn't Silvio her uncle in some way? And does that not send more of a chill through you to know that he was the one to take her out?). I think it's a case of just not being able to extricate herself before she got in too deep. And when the drug dealer slipped her the capsule, I thought about how she must need all those artificial means, just to try to forget about how deeply her troubles ran. She had become an informant on her fiancÚ and his family, she was addicted to drugs when Chris was supposed to be clean, she couldn't be sure of what her future held, and no wonder the girl needed to get stoned! The pressures were immense!

She did not make smart choices. But I don't think she was an idiot, just very alone and very frightened. Of course, had she taken the car and headed out of town alone THAT would have shown me a little more of her intelligence. I was cheering her during that daydream of hers. I thought that was awesome, and showed true human strength of character and GREAT writing. The greateness of the writing becomes even more apparent when the plot continues to twist and turn, of course.

But again, I think she truly believed Chris would go for her plan, and when things began to tumble down around her (tell me you don't think she knew the truth from the moment she got into Silvio's car, even though we don't see that moment happening?), she had nowhere to run.

Right on re: Tony and the penne - but he likes ziti better.

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