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| mo_flixx |
 Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 6:26 pm |
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Joined: 30 May 2004
Posts: 12533
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bart wrote: I heard him speak French in that Ripley movie he was in. It was pretty passable French. If he moved back, more power to him, maybe his feelings softened towards his native land. Maybe he missed Chicago-style hot dogs. (he's from the Chicago area, IIRC)
Passable, perhaps - in the sense that it was grammatically correct. He had a poor accent. Anything is possible with a good dialogue coach.
Yeah - and I admire that whole Chi crowd from Steppenwolf Theatre - Sinise, etc. |
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| Joe Vitus |
| Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 7:45 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 14498
Location: Houston
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carrobin wrote: I think there's a difference between being called un-American and being told you "hate America." I do recall that the sixties were rife with people calling other people un-American, and I even recall the Red scare of the fifties--mostly because my mother pointed at the TV set and told me the McCarthy hearings would be history and I should pay attention. But a president and his minions declaring that their critics "hate America," with the connotation that liberals are in league with terrorists, seems to be something only the Bush administration has done.
As for Gore Vidal, I've always found him intelligent and entertaining--one of these days I might even read one of his books.
Personally, I think you're splitting hairs. Being called un-America and being told you hate America are largely the same thing, and in political arguments essentially identical. Surely the communists were feared as wanting nothing other than to subvert and destroy the Amercan way of life. It was frequently said by conservatives that the hippies hated America. They were supporting the Godless North Vietnamese (Jane Fonda posing with the anti-aircraft gun). In fact, many still stuck in a 50's mentality worried that the hippie movement was another tool of the communists.
And let me be clear. I don't find Vidal, or the hippies, or the Americans involved in the Communist movement un-American or haters of America whatsoever. I think it's a weakness of America that we seem to demonize our critics until the issues they challenge are no longer irrelevant. Bizarrely, the land of free speech is the home of conformity. And really always has been.
I've read nearly every essay Vidal has ever written (a friend bought me United States, his largest gathering of essays; I think I'd read all but five of them already), and many of his novels. Myra Breckinridge is one of my all-time favorite novels (and, I think, one of the best novels of the twentieth century). |
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| McBain |
| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 12:12 am |
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Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 1987
Location: Boston
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Joe Vitus wrote: That was a sarcastic comment, wasn't it? I didn't think McBain really considers either to hate America. Did I miss something?
Clearly, neither one of them hates America. Loving America means you sometimes need to lead the intervention. I think of Chomsky loving America the same way one loves a drug addicted brother. |
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A life, Jimmy. You know what that is? It's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come. |
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| Joe Vitus |
| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:55 am |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 14498
Location: Houston
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| Thanks McBain. |
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| chillywilly |
| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 9:57 am |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 8250
Location: Salt Lake City
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carrobin wrote: I don't remember anyone being accused of "hating America" when they criticized Clinton (and boy, did they criticize Clinton!).
Joe does bring up a few points about some being accused when Clinton was in office, but for the most part, it was no where near what Bush and Co. have been spewing. It's more widespread than it's ever been. So much, that a lot of people that used to bash Clinton, are now taking the hypocritial stance of now allowing anyone to bash Bush.
And our media (and lack of intelligent newscasters and reporters) help push this attitude along. It's created a true dividing line. |
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Chilly
"If you should die before me / Ask if you could bring a friend" |
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| Joe Vitus |
| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:06 am |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
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Location: Houston
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Um...the Smothers Brothers were cancelled for mocking Johnson and criticizing Vietnam. Compare that to the many, many shows which regularly mock and attack Bush, not just as contemporary fodder but with a definate ideological slant.
America is hardly in its most oppressive cultural phase. |
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| marantzo |
| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:15 am |
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Joe Vitus wrote: Um...the Smothers Brothers were cancelled for mocking Johnson and criticizing Vietnam. Compare that to the many, many shows which regularly mock and attack Bush, not just as contemporary fodder but with a definate ideological slant.
America is hardly in its most oppressive cultural phase.
Joe, what you said may have been a factor, but according to the sources at the time, it was David Steinberg's stand up routine about the bible that raised such a hew and cry among the bible thumpers that panicked the network into cancelling the show. It was a great routine by the way. |
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| Joe Vitus |
| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:29 am |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 14498
Location: Houston
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| I did not know that. I've never seen that episode, though I've seen a few. |
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| Joe Vitus |
| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:30 am |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
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Location: Houston
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| In any case, there was a running battle with censorship relating to poltics. I believe a famous memo read "You can make fun of the President. But only with respect." |
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| lulu |
| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:00 pm |
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Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 83
Location: Alexandria
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I just cannot remain silent on the accusation that nader spoiled the election for Gore! He did that by himself. I voted for Nader and would do so again for any third-party candidate. I had two choices: not vote or vote for Nader. In no event, would I EVER vote for Hillary or Lieberman and I barely voted for kerry. I am tired of voting for people who are simply not qualified to be president. I listened to so many people saying, well, if you don't vote, etc. etc.
The democratic party is brain dead and unless they put up a stance against Bush and the right-wing loony tunes running the country, they deserve to lose. I'll help them. Eventually, if we still have a country, we may have a party that has returned to its core electorate: the poor, disenfranchised, middle-class (remember them before they disappear completely) and not the selfish yuppies.)
Fool me once, shame on you; Fool me twice, shame on me (something Bush couldn't comprehend since he garbled that).
I apologize to no one for voting for Nader. |
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| Joe Vitus |
| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:10 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
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Location: Houston
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Wow, that's great to read. I voted for Nader two elections ago, though I voted for Kerry in the last one. It wasn't a "practical" vote because I thought Nader would lose. I think Kerry ultimately was the better candidate.
I know I sound out of touch, but I thought Kerry would make a better showing here in Texas than he did, not that I expected him to win. Just that, with the surprising number of bumper stickers advocating him that I saw, I assumed he had a wider impact than he did.
I don't think you have to apologize to anyone. Vote your convictions. It's what we all must do. |
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| marantzo |
| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:19 pm |
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| Outside of your opinion on movies I have no interest in your motivations or rationalizations or feelings of inadequacies vis a vis the downtrodden etc., lulu. I don't give a fuck who you vote for or why. |
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| mo_flixx |
| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:33 pm |
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Joined: 30 May 2004
Posts: 12533
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lulu wrote:
The democratic party is brain dead ...
But the Republican Party is ----- (fill in the blanks)
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| carrobin |
| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:48 pm |
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 7795
Location: NYC
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Mo: Words fail us.
It's funny how I've become hooked on the Sunday morning political talkfests over the past three or four years. Used to be I couldn't care less. Now I listen like a news junkie (and I love Saturday Night Live's parodies of them). I really like the McLaughlin Report--sometimes I think it should have an audience, like Jerry Springer. |
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| chillywilly |
| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:18 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 8250
Location: Salt Lake City
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I watch ABC This Week with George Stephanopoulos. Used to be a big Meet The Press fan until a few months before the 2004 election. That's when I lost all manner of political clout and respect for Tim Russert.
CBS with Bob Sheiffer isn't too bad. Fox News Sunday is one I cannot stomach. I have no idea who replaced Tony Snow, but the few times I've passed by it, it's been more than I care to watch. |
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Chilly
"If you should die before me / Ask if you could bring a friend" |
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