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| MVerdoux |
 Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:43 pm |
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Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 37
Location: NYC & NJ
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Marj wrote: It's been said that Jackie Coogan's father was on the set during the shoot. And in the scene where they're taking him away, he told Coogan Jr, that if he didn't cry he'd be sent to a real workhouse. But I'm guessing this is more folklore than not.
Actually, the story goes that Jack Sr. threatened his son with taking him off the picture if he didn't perform the crying convincingly. Apparently Jack Sr. was a real S.O.B. in real life - extending to spending all of his son's fortune - thus "The Coogan Law" for child actors came into being.
Jackie spoke extensively about the scene in question in both Kevin Brownlow/David Gill's documentaries: HOLLYWOOD (episode "Comedy: A Serious Business") and I believe the second episode of UNKNOWN CHAPLIN. I remember that he said that he really had to get himself upset for the scene - otherwise it would have been as phony as a three dollar bill.
Jackie's father actually appears in a few scenes in the film - as the "sleeping" pick-pocket in the flophouse - and he's also a guest in the deleted scene where Edna and Carl Miller meet again at a party. |
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"We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery we need humanity. More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost." - Charles Chaplin |
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| MVerdoux |
| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:33 am |
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Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 37
Location: NYC & NJ
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gromit wrote: IMDB lists the original version of The Kid as 68 minutes. I only have the edited 50 minute version, without the 6 minutes of later deleted scenes. So a question about the original length. Was it 56 minutes or longer?
The 1971 "cut" version at 24fps is 52 minutes. This same version appears on the new Warner MK2 dvd - but at 25fps for PAL (European format) and thus shaves off two minutes from the running time (unfortunatly this is the case with ALL of the Chaplin releases put out by Warner MK2.)
The 68 minute running time comes from the Shepard/Image LaserDisc/DVD issue of the complete film - which not only contains the deleted scenes cut in 1971 but has also been slowed down a bit in transfer (probably something like 20 or 22 fps). So that has a lot to do with explaining the vast difference in running times.
gromit wrote: In any case, you can see how the film is broken down into sections, which I assume are really reel to reel sections.
1st part: Infancy (baby lost and found).
Sentiment and set-up. Establishes the key players, and puts the relationships into motion. Sadness combined with mild humor.
2nd: Childhood (5 years later). Featuring their team work and getting chased by a cop. Humorous, but also develops the relationship between the Tramp and his "son"
3rd: The fight scene(s). Just a complete mid-film slapstick romp.
4th: Kid re-possesion and Tramp resistance. The plot returns, with the kid becoming an orphan once again. A chase scene that is woven tightly into the plot.
5th: Reward and removal; dream sequence; reunion. The Kid is again lost and found.
Humor mostly in the dream sequence.
Chaplin's films are often described (or criticized) as being episodic (MODERN TIMES - my favorite film of all - is tossed off by one critic as being a bunch of one or two reelers strung together.) However - I think Chaplin is wonderful at distracting from any "seams" that might exist.
As for humor....I see much humor INGENIOUSLY interwoven throughout what is actually a very sad and serious story. It took Chaplin's genius to pull this off. (One moment that comes to mind - when he sits on the street - stuck with the baby - and actually considers sticking the child in the sewer!....riotously funny and horrifically tragic at the same time.) What a fine tightrope act he pulls off in this film! |
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"We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery we need humanity. More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost." - Charles Chaplin |
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| MVerdoux |
| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:40 am |
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Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 37
Location: NYC & NJ
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Marilyn wrote: I liked the tough (hilariously stuffed with padding to make him look muscular) getting increasingly more wobbly every time Charlie hit him on the head with that brick.
That's Charles (Chuck) Reisner - an assistant director for Chaplin on a number of films. He also directed Keaton's STEAMBOAT BILL JR.Check out his filmography on the IMDB. |
_________________
"We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery we need humanity. More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost." - Charles Chaplin |
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| MVerdoux |
| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:47 am |
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Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 37
Location: NYC & NJ
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Marilyn wrote: That's what the documentary said. It said that Coogan was Chaplin's only true costar.
In the later films, Paulette Goddard in MODERN TIMES might also be considered a true co-star. She really holds her own and has presence....not to mention that her character (The Gamin) is sort of the female flipside of The Tramp in that film.
Pre-First National (i.e. during the Mutual period) Eric Campbell makes a hell of a co-star for Chaplin. After Campbell's death (in a car accident) Chaplin spent the rest of the Tramp's career trying to find an equal a foil as Campbell - with no takers.
Undoubtedly, had he lived, Campbell would have figured in THE KID....most obviously in the Chuck Riesner role. |
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"We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery we need humanity. More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost." - Charles Chaplin |
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| MVerdoux |
| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:53 am |
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Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 37
Location: NYC & NJ
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Joe Vitus wrote: Lady,
The poster reminds me of the "Night on Bald Mountain" sequence in Fantasia. I like silents and Lovecraft, so I must be the target demographic.
God, I love that sequence! Chernabog is one of the most beautiful and horrific characters ever animated. Disney animator Bill Tytla most definitely must have seen that poster and was inspired by it!  |
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"We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery we need humanity. More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost." - Charles Chaplin |
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| MVerdoux |
| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:08 am |
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Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 37
Location: NYC & NJ
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Okay...regarding that last post.....
I'm tired AND an idiot.....obviously...the makers of this NEW silent film (or at least the poster designer) has been inspired by the Chernabog imagery in FANTASIA and reimagined it with an octopus head! Very effective!
http://www.spiderwebart.com/image=100683b.jpg
[img][/img] |
_________________
"We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery we need humanity. More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost." - Charles Chaplin |
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| censored-03 |
| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:17 am |
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Joined: 24 May 2004
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Location: Gotham, Big Apple, The Naked City
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I thought the mention of the amount of reels in this early poster was interesting considering some of the discussion here.
These are just a few of the pieces of merchandise from the popular The Kid from the 20's.
And one of Chaplin's Little Tramp. |
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"Life is a comedy for those who think and a tragedy for those who feel."
-- Horace Walpole |
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| MVerdoux |
| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:37 am |
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Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 37
Location: NYC & NJ
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gromit wrote: Btw, my copy of The Kid (from the Chaplin box I'm fairly certain) looked immaculate. Really a delight to see such an old film look so clean.
Does anyone know the history for this film/print? Is it a matter of Chaplin preserving his own negatives carefully? Or was it such a popular film that it was easy to find a surviving pristine print? A lucky one-off find? Stellar refurbishing? [Inquiring minds want to know]
Chaplin did do a lot to preserve the films that he himself controlled the rights to (First National period on) although the overall preservation of many of his films was a mixed bag....his personal feelings about certain films at different points throughout his life...not to mention the exile to Switzerland...played roles in what survived, how it survived, where it survived, etc. The story of how the master material for CITY LIGHTS turned up after being lost for decades is a piquant example (some details for those interested for another thread.)
A number of the Chaplin First Nationals survive within the Chaplin archive as bastard childs....editions cobbled together from best surviving materials which sometimes incorporate alternate takes. THE KID for the most part appears to be authentic to it's 1921 release in that department. However - some study of different surviving versions (including foreign prints) would need to be undertaken to make sure. One thing I do know is that all the original titles have been replaced in the version we're now looking at (the original opening titles had a different look - replete with First National logos. And the intertitles had different typefaces and some artworkas well. I have some surviving material from an original 1921 US release print which illustrates this. |
_________________
"We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery we need humanity. More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost." - Charles Chaplin |
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| MVerdoux |
| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:40 am |
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Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 37
Location: NYC & NJ
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ernie wrote: this forum is boring like a U2 concert
HEYYYY!!! I like U2 (although I confess I've never been to one of their concerts.)  |
_________________
"We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery we need humanity. More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost." - Charles Chaplin |
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| MVerdoux |
| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:45 am |
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Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 37
Location: NYC & NJ
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Marilyn wrote: I think juxtaposing The Kid with The General is a bit unfair, Lady W. Your prejudice toward Keaton is showing. The Kid was Chaplin's first feature-length film. The General is Keaton's finest film and one of the most elaborate silents ever made.
I kind of agree with this. THE CIRCUS would have made more sense as a pairing with THE GENERAL in terms of what both artists were producing around the same time.
THREE AGES makes more sense to be paired with THE KID.
But then maybe we're not so much comparing them as just discussing them within the same week under the broad topic of "Two Masters of Silent Comedy." |
_________________
"We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery we need humanity. More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost." - Charles Chaplin |
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| MVerdoux |
| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:50 am |
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Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 37
Location: NYC & NJ
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dlhavard wrote: You might of been thinking of Wallace Beery's "The Champ" which was extremely sappy.
Then of course there's the underrated Laurel & Hardy three-reeler THE CHIMP which has even less to do with THE CHAMP but does have the running theme of Stan & Ollie looking after an abandoned circus ape.  |
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"We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery we need humanity. More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost." - Charles Chaplin |
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| Joe Vitus |
| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:50 am |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 14498
Location: Houston
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MV,
Either way, yes I think the one must have consciously inspired the other. I don't get much of a chance to talk to you, because I'm behind on my viewing (want to contribute a Coogan anecdote, but must check my source at the library to make sure I've got it right). Anyway, I enjoy your posts a lot. |
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You've got a great brain. You should keep it in your head.
-Topher |
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| tirebiter |
| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 4:22 am |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 4011
Location: not far away
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I think MVerdoux should be banned from this forum for being too knowledgeable.
MVerdoux makes me feel stupid. It's not nice and it shouldn't be allowed. |
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| tirebiter |
| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:31 am |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 4011
Location: not far away
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I joke. I'm a joker.
Just like there are Beatles fans and then there are Stones fans, there are Chaplin fans and then there are Keaton fans. I guess it's not an either/or proposition, Chaplin vs Keaton, but we all have our preferences.
I'm a Keaton fan. This doesn't mean that Chaplin fans should be exsanguinated and then flattened by road-grading equipment, but the idea has its attractive aspects. |
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| ehle64 |
| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:37 am |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 7149
Location: NYC; US&A
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| It all reminds me of the beautifully shot scene in Bertolucci's The Dreamers where our trio of film fans are bathing together discussing Chaplin vs. Keaton. Goddamn, I love that movie. |
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It truly disappoints me when people do something for you via no prompt of your own and then use it as some kind of weapon against you at a later time and place. It is what it is. |
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