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| Joe Vitus |
 Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:40 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 14498
Location: Houston
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Maybe I think truth is amoral. I say "maybe" because I'm not sure.
But, beyond that, I am very wary of the word "truthful" with it comes to art. What's true about the perfect bodies of Greek statuary or the tragedies of Racine or the world created by Dickens (the social problems aside)?
Of course, I'm not saying art is a big lie, either. It's just too complex an issue for me to be sure about, and when we get into an area like the movies, where art is arising out of popular entertainment, things get even murkier. Truth to one's own perceptions seems a more accurate description of good art than truth in and of itself. |
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| Marilyn |
| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:43 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 8210
Location: Skokie (not a bad movie, btw)
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| I am speaking about personal truth. I'd like to think that all human beings have universal truths, but I think the evidence is that universal is in the eye of the beholder. |
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http://ferdyonfilms.com |
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| Joe Vitus |
| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:47 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 14498
Location: Houston
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| Yes, I agree with you about this, too. |
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| Haiku |
| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:11 am |
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 123
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Finally had the chance to watch The Limey. I had been wanting to see it for years now. Basically, the story is that of Wilson, an English ex-con, with a good cockney vocabulary, who comes to LA to avenge his estranged daughter's death. It's a very good film. The final twist takes it out of the obvious and completes the character study of Wilson.
What a great performance by Terence Stamp. He has such an incredible face and eyes - the camera paid close attention and was mesmerizing to me.
I love the juxtaposition of Stamp in Poor Cow and his present self in The Limey. As for Peter Fonda, despite the fact that his character seemed a bit of an obvious caricature of a possible outcome for himself, he played it brilliantly and was uber slimey. |
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| Marj |
| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:55 pm |
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 10497
Location: Manhattan
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Billy wrote:
Quote: My two cents: this conversation between Brownstone and Joe absolutely exemplifies our forum at its best: two cogent and reasonable points of view being expressed intelligently and lucidly and without acrimony. May we have more of this kind of discussion.
I could not agree more. And thanks to Marilyn and Gary, the dicussion has even broadened.
So to take to another level. Joe, as much as I appreciate the excellence of this movie, I was disturbed. I have to ask on a more basic level, did you have any emotional reaction to it at all?
I suppose what I can't understand is if BOAN is to be considered a true work of art, and one is not moved by it in some way, how then you considerate it a work of art? Or perhaps you were moved but just not distrubed?
[Btw, I do believe there are films which I personally consider to be art, that did nothing more than entertain. Not that I would ever include BOAN in that category.] |
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| ehle64 |
| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:07 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 7149
Location: NYC; US&A
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I need to see Birth of a Nation.
lady_w (and all else curious) -- The Saddest Music In The World was released on DVD on Tuesday. It contains 3 of Guy Maddin's shorts, including "Sissy Boy Slap Party". WooHOO!! |
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It truly disappoints me when people do something for you via no prompt of your own and then use it as some kind of weapon against you at a later time and place. It is what it is. |
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| Ghulam |
| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:08 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 4742
Location: Upstate NY
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| Almost exactly a year after seeing Monster, to see the documentary Aileen : Life further confirms that Charlize Theron's performance in Patty Jenkins' movie was indeed remarkable. Aileen in the documentary comes across as being distractible, with a short attention span and a shorter fuse. She has very tenuous, almost non-existent, defenses against her smoldering rage and aggressivity. The documentary is made by a group of no known distinction, and yet Aileen's mercurial and unremorseful nature comes through in almost every scene in which she appears. Not pleasant, but a glimpse of a piece of reality that we are not likely to see again. |
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| Mr. Brownstone |
| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:09 pm |
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2450
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"My two cents: this conversation between Brownstone and Joe absolutely exemplifies our forum at its best: two cogent and reasonable points of view being expressed intelligently and lucidly and without acrimony. May we have more of this kind of discussion."
Joe's a buttface. |
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"My name is Gunnery Sergeant Major Highway. And I have drunk more beer, pissed more blood, banged more quiff and knocked more skulls than all you numbnuts put together." - Clint Eastwood, Heartbreak Ridge |
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| Private Joker |
| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:12 pm |
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Joined: 28 May 2004
Posts: 322
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ehle64 wrote: I need to see Birth of a Nation.
lady_w (and all else curious) -- The Saddest Music In The World was released on DVD on Tuesday. It contains 3 of Guy Maddin's shorts, including "Sissy Boy Slap Party". WooHOO!!
Is "The Heart of the World" on that? I'm dying to see it... |
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-joker
www.privatejoker.org |
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| ehle64 |
| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:29 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 7149
Location: NYC; US&A
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Not according to Amazon.com:
Three short films from Guy Maddin: A Trip to the Orphange, Sissy Boy Slap Party, Sombra Dolorosa |
_________________
It truly disappoints me when people do something for you via no prompt of your own and then use it as some kind of weapon against you at a later time and place. It is what it is. |
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| lshap |
| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:43 pm |
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Site Admin
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 4246
Location: Montreal
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| Joker - The Heart of the World stars four people, one of whom, Shaun Balbar, is living here in Montreal with one of my oldest, bestest friends. He's been out of acting for over a year but I'll ask him if he has a copy. |
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| ehle64 |
| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:46 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 7149
Location: NYC; US&A
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| Could ya ask him if he has two? And if not, send me the one and I'll make mr.b a copy. |
_________________
It truly disappoints me when people do something for you via no prompt of your own and then use it as some kind of weapon against you at a later time and place. It is what it is. |
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| ehle64 |
| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:47 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 7149
Location: NYC; US&A
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| Ahhhh, forget it. Of course I meant privatejoker. I get all confused when offereing kindness. *sigh* |
_________________
It truly disappoints me when people do something for you via no prompt of your own and then use it as some kind of weapon against you at a later time and place. It is what it is. |
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| billyweeds |
| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:48 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 20618
Location: New York City
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Mr. Brownstone wrote: "My two cents: this conversation between Brownstone and Joe absolutely exemplifies our forum at its best: two cogent and reasonable points of view being expressed intelligently and lucidly and without acrimony. May we have more of this kind of discussion."
Joe's a buttface.
So much for my two cents. |
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| Joe Vitus |
| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:55 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 14498
Location: Houston
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Marj,
Quote: I was disturbed. I have to ask on a more basic level, did you have any emotional reaction to it at all?
A huge one. I felt like I was at Ford's Theater the night of the assassination, and if I could just reach forward, I could stop the slaughter of the president. I was incredibly moved by the scenes on the battlefield, the preparation for the Little Colonel's homecoming, and that shot of him embraced by the arms at the door. The very concept that the Civil War lead to the birth of a unified America is potent (and Dixon suppied this as well as the new title, by the way).
Yes, I was/am disturbed by the concepts of race (and racial retalliation). The depiction of blacks is deeply troubling. Blacks are generally ambitious and evil (on an almost psychopathological level) or innocuous and "cute". Like the British Victorian concept of class, in which only "bad" people struggle against the level they were born to, the "good" blacks here are those that "know their place."
It is interesting, however, that the black character who theoretically chases one of the sisters to her death as he tries to rape her, in fact obviously realizes she has no interest and stops trying to chase her, then registers horror when he realizes she is out of control, and actually tries to save her as she rushes towards the cliff, gesturing wildly that he no longer means harm and that she must be careful and stop before she destroys herself. Ultimately, she's more hysterical and frenzied (and simpleminded) than he is.
There's no way to look at the Klan exactly as Griffith wanted us to, or as contemporary audiences must have. They are far too aligned with the Nazis in our mind (and for good reason).
The movie is troubling, but that doesn't make it bad, or evil to me. Somehow it seems appropriate that the first major work of art to come from American cinema should be so intense, and so devisive. It hits on what is probably the central conflict of our culture, the estrangement of the races, and even if it depicts this from an incredibly wrong perspective, it is still hitting the most sensitive nerve we've got as Americans.
I think this is a raw, vivid work, deeply American in the way so many later important movies from this country would not be. I think it on par with The Godfather and Nashville, an American epic. I think allowing the negative elements of the movie to win out in our minds over the greatness of it, the deeply moving quality of it, is a huge mistake. |
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