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bartist
Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:29 am Reply with quote
Joined: 27 Apr 2010 Posts: 6941 Location: Black Hills
Henry Gibson is/was infinitely more likeable than #45. But, for sure, I see the relatedness. I am just old enough to remember him on Laugh-In with the poems. He was also great as a cranky judge on The Good Wife. And a Ferenghi, on Star Trek: Deep Space 9.

I suspect a dumpster full of burning plastic diapers could get better approval numbers from Gallup as a POTUS right now. 34% is an epic low in the first quarter of an administration. And Trump is the only POTUS in my living memory for whom I could be shocked at how HIGH that number is. It hints at how "single source" is a sizeable bloc of registered voters. And I suspect that single source is the one named after a sound a bird makes.

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pedersencr
Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:46 am Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 921 Location: New Orleans
The BUG (Big Ugly Guy) is definitely the most worrisome thing to come down the pike yet. There have been extreme political views and politicians galore in American history, but this is the first time any one has actually made it into the White House. It turns my stomach and gives me the shivers. Only my head is suggesting that this will eventually pass and we'll get onto repairing the damage. But in the meantime I am resigned to seeing my worst fears come to pass.

And I'll stop there, while I am still in control of my language.

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carrobin
Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:09 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 7795 Location: NYC
I keep wondering, is Putin very proud, or is he very sorry? I guess it depends on how North Korea turns out.
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gromit
Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:10 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 9005 Location: Shanghai
Putin's pleased. He disrupted and weakened the US.
Otherwise, he mostly cares about keeping Crimea, getting rid of sanctions, keeping Assad in power (retaining Syria as a client state). And all of that is easier accomplished with Trump than Clinton.
Except for the sanctions, things are going well for him.
Trump was amenable to lessening the sanctions, but Congress took a stand.

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carrobin
Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:12 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 7795 Location: NYC
I'm glad I'm not in South Carolina today. I know the attitudes toward the Virginia situation are far different from what I'm seeing on CNN and MSNBC, or around New York. My two gay friends there undoubtedly feel as I do, and my mother and my cousin Sandy do too, but I'm not so sure about my sister and her husband--though I'm pretty sure she's probably sorry she voted for Trump (she'd never tell me).

Thing is, the Confederate flag and the Civil War heroes and all that stuff aren't generally considered political or ideological--you're just proud to be a Southern boy or girl, and those are your symbols of belonging, whatever looks best on your pickup truck. There's a kind of nostalgic romance around them, and white southerners seldom think about how black southerners might feel on the subject. And we learned very little about the history in school--we know the South lost the war, and there were a lot of problems afterward before everything settled down, but "Gone With the Wind" covered about all most of us knew about the subject. But passions rise when the flags and statues are challenged or taken down, and it's an assault on "tradition" and "the culture" and history. So I understand the anxiety, and it's a tough problem; there's no good defense for displaying those icons, but a lot of people get offensive when they're criticized. Suddenly the innocuous design of the Confederate flag on a T-shirt becomes a matter of personal faith, and the good ol' boys are reaching for their guns.

Obama was not a popular president down there, but as far as I know, there were no Klan rallies or white supremacist marches during his eight years. I actually thought things were going remarkably well, considering what the racial divide was like when I was growing up. It takes someone like Trump, who has no idea what the history is or why anyone cares about it, to knock over the rotten-apple barrel with his noisy appeal for applause from the cheap seats.
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pedersencr
Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:53 am Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 921 Location: New Orleans
carrobin wrote:
It takes someone like Trump, who has no idea what the history is or why anyone cares about it, to knock over the rotten-apple barrel with his noisy appeal for applause from the cheap seats.


I especially like your short-short summary: " . . . Trump, who has no idea . . ."

That's our President! Clueless. (And malicious.)

But In addition, I agree wholeheartedly with your entire post. It's a very hard thing from this distance (and in my opinion) to sort out the knots of conflicting passions, both North and South, that led to the original war. There were many issues and many views on all sides of all issues back then; my head whirls as I read history trying to keep the politics of the time straight.

By now, however, public discussion seems to have boiled down to self-perpetuating slogans and simple buzzwords.

Maybe that's all the Bug can handle -- along with many other people. It's a shame.

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mitty
Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:28 am Reply with quote
Joined: 02 Aug 2004 Posts: 1359 Location: Way Down Yonder.......
carrobin,
I couldn't agree with you more. I'm born, raised, and lived my life so far in and near New Orleans. And while I believe N.O. Is kind of considered the "other South", I too was raised with the romantic aspect of which you speak, in spite of my English mother. Smile. It permeates the air.

Now though, I am seeing how outsiders and my black neighbors see those symbols. I understand that it has caused them pain. That's just wrong, no one should have to endure that sort of reminder of a terrible past and wrongs done.

I know Lee would have hated, first of all a statue of himself, and secondly, all the distress and arguements it has caused. He was the exact opposite of a "grandstander", unlike some of our day.

And the idea that Neo-Nazis and all the other creeps have hijacked those symbols makes me sick to my stomach. That alone would make me want to take down all the statues and symbols.

"The past is never dead, it's not even past." Faulkner had it exactly right, but we can bury it anyhow, yes? If only we will.
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mitty
Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:35 am Reply with quote
Joined: 02 Aug 2004 Posts: 1359 Location: Way Down Yonder.......
bartist wrote:
Henry Gibson is/was infinitely more likeable than #45. But, for sure, I see the relatedness. I am just old enough to remember him on Laugh-In with the poems. He was also great as a cranky judge on The Good Wife. And a Ferenghi, on Star Trek: Deep Space 9.
.


Ahhhh! Didn't realize that he was on DS9. Neat!
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carrobin
Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:00 am Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 7795 Location: NYC
It's good to see all the anti-Trump response on TV, but it's also worrying to see the encouragement of the angry bigots. Trump may be the only person alive who could manage to rile up dangerous dissention with nuclear-armed North Korea and hate-fueled American alt-righters at the same time. When I talk to my 97-year-old mother every weekend, she asks me How did he get to be president!? It doesn't help to remind her that 3 million more voted for Hillary.
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bartist
Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:37 am Reply with quote
Joined: 27 Apr 2010 Posts: 6941 Location: Black Hills
Married to someone with Southern roots, I can see the innocuous side to the old statues and symbols, the natural human desire to connect with roots and feel part of a tradition. Some genuiinely feel that Lee stood for a certain kind of integrity and states rights being retained in a federal system, and I know that doesn't mean they are excusing slavery or wouldn't agree it was a dark stain wherever it happened on the planet. A civilization that values intelligence and knowledge can value a general consensus that historical figures are usually a mixed bag when it comes to our modern ethical and moral standards.

So I have some sympathy for keeping some of those historical figures somewhere in a town, maybe someplace where they are less likely to signal, say, "this is what modern-day Charlottesville is all about. Woohoo!" So maybe total annihiliation of old Confederates isn't necessary. Move them from the town square or a central park to some location that is understood to be an historical park, where both saints and sinners are displayed and put in whatever context suits the viewer.

I agree that it is a really dismal situation when you have neo-Nazis attaching themselves to this issue and poisoning what could have been a calmer public conversation about historical figures. And now these creeps are going to demonstrate in 9 major cities, sigh. I wonder if the best thing would be for people to simply ignore these displays. This is America, where attention and media coverage is oxygen to zealots of all stripes. And, of course, going after them with baseball bats serves only to validate their own violent creed.

What, if instead, counterprotestors were dead silent and just stood by holding up pictures of Emmet Till and concentration camp corpse piles and other victims of hatred? Something along those lines could be far more powerful.

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carrobin
Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:44 am Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 7795 Location: NYC
I've had the same kind of idea, Bart. But a lot of people just can't seem to resist getting physical.
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whiskeypriest
Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:48 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 6916 Location: "It's a Dry Heat."
bartist wrote:
Henry Gibson is/was infinitely more likeable than #45. But, for sure, I see the relatedness. I am just old enough to remember him on Laugh-In with the poems. He was also great as a cranky judge on The Good Wife. And a Ferenghi, on Star Trek: Deep Space 9.
He will always be Haven Hamilton to me. He was also Thurston Howell.

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whiskeypriest
Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:50 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 6916 Location: "It's a Dry Heat."
So if you think of yourself as "very fine people" and find yourself in a torch bearing crowd of Nazis and Klansman, and your first and only thought is NOT "How the FUCK do I get out of this?' you may not be as fine a person as you thought you were.

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bartist
Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:17 am Reply with quote
Joined: 27 Apr 2010 Posts: 6941 Location: Black Hills
Especially if you find a tiki torch in your hand, symbolizing the preferred illumination method of a KKK lynch mob. Of course the riot gear you are wearing, and the baton in the other hand, could just be a prudent measure to ensure personal safety.

Had forgotten HG was Thurston Howell III (flashbacks to TH3's youth, right?).

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carrobin
Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:55 am Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 7795 Location: NYC
The NY Daily News (always easier to crack than the Times) printed another of my letters today--

"Surely now even the Republicans are ready to do away with the antique Electoral College."

That's the key--keep 'em short.
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