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| knox |
 Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:21 am |
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Joined: 18 Mar 2010
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Location: St. Louis
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| Herzog is a better documentarist than movie director. Bad Lieut. POCNO. should have prompted introduction of a new MPAA rating called "YMMV." I found it quite amusing, though some felt he may have jumped into the cactus too many times. |
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| marantzo |
| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:46 am |
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| OK, what does YMMV stand for? |
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| grace |
| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:13 pm |
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Joined: 11 Nov 2005
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marantzo wrote: OK, what does YMMV stand for?
Your Mileage May Vary |
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| gromit |
| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:17 pm |
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Joined: 31 Aug 2004
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Location: Shanghai
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| Befade |
| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:03 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
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Location: AZ
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Quote: But my point is that Werner seemed real restrained in his questions.
I think that's his genius. He doesn't show the avid curiosity that could derail the responses.........and he's very nonjudgmental........very untainted with any personal emotion. One time he did express an opinion........and I agree with him.......that the executed killer was a very dangerous and scary individual. The guy had no affect or connection with the murderous event. This is an area that interests me. With the current emphasis on brain research I tend to think that there is a neurological disconnect with empathy in sociopaths.
But you're right it was a stupid and tragic act.......how much did drugs play a role?
I liked Bad Lieutenant.......but my favorite Herzog was Grizzley Man. |
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| marantzo |
| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:48 pm |
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"With the current emphasis on brain research I tend to think that there is a neurological disconnect with empathy in sociopats."
Betsy, unless I'm mistaken, there is a neurological disconnect in sociopaths. They don't have any empathy whatsoever. But I'm sure you know that. Like so many mental problems it's a brain malfunction. I wonder if it is hereditary? |
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| Befade |
| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:33 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
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| That's what I mean, Gary.........I just don't know if the research has shown that there is an area of the brain that is responsible for empathy. I know that there are genetic mutations that occur with no basis in heredity. |
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| gromit |
| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:24 am |
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Yes, Werner's laid back style is good. I just think he normally asks more pointed questions with a simple direct philosophical underpinning. Like maybe asking the sheriff , something like, Animals in the wild kill each other mercilessly all the time -- do you think man has a natural inclination to kill?
Or maybe asking either of the two murderers, Did your mother or anyone ever bake cookies for you?
I was expecting that sort of Werner slightly perverse, mildly oblique but cut-to-the-chase type question.
I did read that he had very limited time with the killers in his TV series (2 hours in some cases), so maybe his strategy had to be get them talking and keep it simple.
A lot of sociopaths have large egos and lack of empathy.
Also probably a poor understanding of consequences and results of one's action. But I think in the case of murder, often the act happens so quickly, frequently fueled by drugs or rage or suicidal depression, that I'm not sure lack of empathy is a primary factor.
And we see in Into the A and plenty of other places where even the survivors often try to block out n incident in order to deal with it. And I think that's probably exactly what the killers do -- block out the incident, maybe try to convince themselves they weren't to blame, and basically try either not to deal with it or otherwise minimize it form their consciousness. This is certainly easier to do when you are concerned with survival and getting away with the crime, and more difficult when your sitting in a cage as punishment for what you did. But even then many live with themselves by denying their actions and probably feeling aggrieved at how the system/life has screwed them. |
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Killing your enemies, if it's done badly, increases their number. |
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| Joe Vitus |
| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:06 am |
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| As far as I'm aware, while Gary's description is correct (which is, rather chillingly, the general reason serial killers don't have long careers: they aren't stopped and they don't develop morality, they just get bored; though it does seem that sociopathology is related to youth, and the longer one lives, the more a person with this defect either develops empathy or just learns to effectively mimic it in order to blend in and continue his or her life), Betsy is also correct that no precise area of the brain has been located in which this defect can be physically identified. |
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You've got a great brain. You should keep it in your head.
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| Befade |
| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:59 am |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
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Quote: I was expecting that sort of Werner slightly perverse, mildly oblique but cut-to-the-chase type question.
I think Herzog's objective was to show the whole spectrum of people affected by these murders. I think he didn't take the subject lightly so he didn't ask those kinds of questions. |
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| gromit |
| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:12 am |
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I think Herzog is a profoundly serious man with a unique perspective which didn't come through as much as I would have liked. I thought my two faux-Herzog question above were serious and scratching for truth/insight.
There was one typical Herzog moment when he is talking with the woman whose mother and brother were murdered and she says that she plans to attend the execution for one of the killers. WH says that he doubts Jesus would be in favor of capital punishment to which she agrees. |
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| Befade |
| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:20 pm |
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Gromit.........I see your point if Herzog had had the leisure to delve into the convicts' inner worlds. If his time was limited........that explains why he didn't. I don't think you'd make sense of the executed convict's ramblings on anything, though. He was disconnected from the reality.
I've always been against the death penalty...........this film was subtly promoting that viewpoint. |
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| gromit |
| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:26 am |
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I used to be completely agaisnt the death penalty when I was young. I didn't think the gov't should have the power of life and death over its citizens. But of course it does in that it can start wars and conscript citizens into the military.
But now I feel that certain crimes are heinous or callous enough that one can forfeit their life. Case in point, the Colorado movie massacre. I assume that there is almost no doubt they have the right guy, he killed over a dozen people and tried to kill multiples more. I find it very hard to justify that he gets to live another 5 or 10 years or his even natural life even imprisoned.I
I;m also not terribly fond if insanity defenses and would keep those very limited (probably to cases where the person actually has severe mental illness and/or genuinely didn't know his actions were wrong).
There is a huge problem in the way capital cases are tried and the death penalty is applied. Just having a fairly competent lawyer who is not on his/her first capital murder case and stays awake through the whole proceedings and raises some objections now and then makes a huge difference between getting the death penalty and a lesser sentence. I also think people (/jurors) underestimate the prevalence of police perjury, prosecutorial misconduct, and the inherent weaknesses of witness identification.
I'd limit the death penalty to cases of mass murder, cop killings, second murder convictions, or especially heinous other felony-murder scenarios. And require proof beyond beyond a reasonable doubt. Maybe a finding of little or no doubt should be the standard. We've seen through DNA testing and some jailhouse confessions how the wrong person has often been convicted of murder and sentenced to death. Illinois shut down its whole death penalty apparatus because Barry Scheck's class kept exonerating death row inmates.
Anyway, back to Current Filmdom -- I'm not planning on seeing the Dark Knight Rises and really only skimmed through some info about the film after the shooting brought it strongly to my attention.
Maybe this has been noted already
BUT,
the Bad Guy, an Incarnation of Evil, is named Bane (Bain) and the Good Guy, who saves Civilization, is a White Man disguised with a Black Exterior.
I'm sure that's simplifying and there are more complications and contradictions than that -- the rich guy being the good guy in Batman, apparently green energy being transformed into evil (what's the message there?), etc.
But Bane (/Bain) being the Evil struck me as amusing and apropos. I'd say a new internet meme should be Bane is Evil.
If it spreads enough, then every time Romney mentions his ex-company, people will snicker and laugh. (hey dumber stuff has worked in presidential campaigns before, just think back to Kerry being called French-looking). |
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| Syd |
| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:59 am |
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Joined: 21 May 2004
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knox wrote: Herzog is a better documentarist than movie director. Bad Lieut. POCNO. should have prompted introduction of a new MPAA rating called "YMMV." I found it quite amusing, though some felt he may have jumped into the cactus too many times.
Currently he's a better documentarian, but the man did do Aguirre and Fitzcarraldo. |
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I had a love and my love was true but I lost my love to the yabba dabba doo, --The Flintstone Lament |
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| carrobin |
| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:06 am |
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 7795
Location: NYC
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| According to Rachel Maddow (or was it one of the other MSNBC bunch), Rush Limbaugh has already turned the Bain/Bane combo into a giant anti-Romney conspiracy theory. Evidently he didn't know that Bane was a villain in Batman comics before anyone ever heard of Mitt. |
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