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| whiskeypriest |
 Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:46 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 6916
Location: "It's a Dry Heat."
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| I firmly believe the Catholic Church should never be required to sanctify, or recognize as canonically valid, a Gay marriage. |
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| yambu |
| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:16 pm |
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Joined: 23 May 2004
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Location: SF Bay Area
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whiskeypriest wrote: I firmly believe the Catholic Church should never be required to sanctify, or recognize as canonically valid, a Gay marriage. |
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| whiskeypriest |
| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:31 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 6916
Location: "It's a Dry Heat."
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yambu wrote: whiskeypriest wrote: I firmly believe the Catholic Church should never be required to sanctify, or recognize as canonically valid, a Gay marriage. Who's saying otherwise? |
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I ask you, Velvel, as a rational man, which of us is possessed? |
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| marantzo |
| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:22 pm |
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| Seeing as the U.S. is not a theocracy, (yet), the religious groups should stick to their own rules and the country will stick to theirs. |
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| Joe Vitus |
| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:27 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
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Location: Houston
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yambu wrote: whiskeypriest wrote: I firmly believe the Catholic Church should never be required to sanctify, or recognize as canonically valid, a Gay marriage. Who's saying otherwise?
Indeed. The funny thing is, as far as I can tell, no church marriage (of any faith) is legal. Only the couple's registration with the government via the license counts as the legal binding. If you get married in a church but haven't gotten a government license, you aren't legally married. So the issue of gay marriage is a purely "goverment and citizens" issue, not an issue of relgion or of government intruding on the rights of religious groups.
The government should give gays the marriage license and let the churches do the rejection. I really like that religions wouldn't be able to hide behind the government anymore ("It's the law!"), and now have to admit that it's their doing. |
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| gromit |
| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:26 am |
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Joined: 31 Aug 2004
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Location: Shanghai
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Well, I think that was/is the whole impetus behind the civil union approach. The idea being that the term marriage is so bound up with ideas of religion and family and cultural baggage, that you separate the actual legal government contract of marriage from the ceremonial religious side of it.
One way of making it equal without stepping on the toes of religious institutions is for everyone to get civil unioned -- that's all the government would provide to make folks legally bound together. Those who wanted to get "married" in a religious service can do so separately. That's essentially the way it works today in practice anyway. Just formally make it clear that the government is in the legal contract business -- civil unions (or call it legal marriage or whatever) -- and religious groups can tack on whatever religious marriage rituals. |
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| bartist |
| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:48 am |
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Haven't got stats handy, but anecdotal evidence suggests to me that opinion on gay marriage somewhat follows an age demographic (as well as a rural/urban one) and that 52% in CA who oppose will be whittled down in the next decade or two.
The social cons reared their ugly heads yesterday, in three states. Colorado, no surprise, but didn't think Sanatorium would take Minnesota. But then I had to remind myself that moderates are in the inner Twin Cities, but there are plenty of righties in the rest of the state. |
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| Syd |
| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:00 am |
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 12889
Location: Norman, Oklahoma
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The Republican party in Minnesota is pretty conservative. Michele Bachmann's from there. I was really more surprise by Colorado.
Romney didn't carry a single county in Missouri. He carried Minnesota in 2008. If 538's to be believed, Santorum will probably do well throughout the midwest, except probably Michigan.
Arizona and Michigan look good for Romney, and they're actual primaries, not beauty contests. They're on February 28 and Ohio's on March 4. |
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| bartist |
| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:13 am |
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Joined: 27 Apr 2010
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Location: Black Hills
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Quote: The Republican party in Minnesota is pretty conservative. Michele Bachmann's from there. I was really more surprise by Colorado.
Colorado Springs, second largest metro, is the national ground zero for ultra right-wing Christianity. Outside of Fort Collins and north Denver, the state tends to be far right.
Yeah, yesterday was "preference votes," so hard to be sure what the delegates will do come the convention. |
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| gromit |
| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:31 am |
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Joined: 31 Aug 2004
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bartist wrote: Outside of Fort Collins and north Denver, the state tends to be far right.
Boulder rocks! |
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| shannon |
| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:58 am |
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 1628
Location: NC
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bartist wrote: Haven't got stats handy, but anecdotal evidence suggests to me that opinion on gay marriage somewhat follows an age demographic (as well as a rural/urban one) and that 52% in CA who oppose will be whittled down in the next decade or two.
Yeah, I remember reading somewhere that among those aged 40 and younger, 90-something percent are pro-gay marriage. |
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| bartist |
| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:28 pm |
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Joined: 27 Apr 2010
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Location: Black Hills
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Yeah, stark contrast indeed.
Gromit -- yes, Boulder rocks...was sort of including it in my vague "north Denver." You get past Longmont, up through Loveland, it's very red-state, then back to liberal in Fort Collins. Greeley has a "blue dot" in the older neighborhoods, but the foothill dwellers to the west are brownophobic bigots. I've spent too much time in Colorado. |
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He was wise beyond his years, but only by a few days. |
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| billyweeds |
| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:19 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
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Location: New York City
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Gotta admit I'm really tickled that Santorum did so well yesterday. The better Rick and Newt do, the more trouble it will cause for the Rethugs, who are probably stuck with Mitt as their nominee, and he's now irretrievably damaged. Obama is going to win no matter who is nominated, but I love seeing the GOP go through so much pain. They made their disgusting bed and now they're having to lie in it. They deserve everything they get.
Do you understand how much I loathe the Republican party? |
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| Joe Vitus |
| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:03 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
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Location: Houston
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Quote: During the Bush years, Guantanamo was the core symbol of right-wing radicalism and what was back then referred to as the “assault on American values and the shredding of our Constitution”: so much so then when Barack Obama ran for President, he featured these issues not as a secondary but as a central plank in his campaign. But now that there is a Democrat in office presiding over Guantanamo and these other polices — rather than a big, bad, scary Republican — all of that has changed...Beyond that, Obama has used drones to kill Muslim children and innocent adults by the hundreds. He has refused to disclose his legal arguments for why he can do this or to justify the attacks in any way. He has even had rescuers and funeral mourners deliberately targeted.
http://www.salon.com/2012/02/08/repulsive_progressive_hypocrisy/ |
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| gromit |
| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:15 pm |
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Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 9008
Location: Shanghai
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You'd think Obama would be able to get some good mileage by shutting down the Guantanamo terrorist prison facility. But the whole of US policy relating to Cuba is thoroughly retrograde and embarrassing.
Otherwise,
Quote: Six states currently grant same-sex marriage licenses -- New York, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Iowa, Vermont and New Hampshire. The District of Columbia also does.
Five additional states recognize civil unions, providing state-level spousal rights to same-sex couples. They are Hawaii, Delaware, New Jersey, Illinois and Rhode Island.
Guess I haven't been following too closely, but that's better than I thought. So 11 states in which gay couples can get married, or the legal equivalent of. Really, public opinion on this has moved faster than I expected. The trends are pretty clear. |
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Killing your enemies, if it's done badly, increases their number. |
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