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| lshap |
 Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:16 pm |
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Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 4248
Location: Montreal
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| I believe Canada's hate speech law is mostly a subcategory of incitement to commit violence. Speech is free, but actions stemming from speech aren't. What gives it a Hate Speech label is if the speech targets a racial or sexual minority. |
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| Marj |
| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:52 am |
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 10497
Location: Manhattan
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lshap wrote: I believe Canada's hate speech law is mostly a subcategory of incitement to commit violence. Speech is free, but actions stemming from speech aren't. What gives it a Hate Speech label is if the speech targets a racial or sexual minority.
Lorne - Isn't that the definition of Hate Speech? |
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| jeremy |
| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:43 am |
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6794
Location: Derby, England and Hamilton, New Zealand (yes they are about 12,000 miles apart)
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I just watched the film "Henry and June" on TV. It was based on Henry and June: From the Unexpurgated Diary of Anaïs Nin, an exploration of the author's relationship with Henry and June Miller in 1930s Paris. I have never read the book, but I understand that it is more worthy than I once imagined. When I was growing up, the books of Anaïs Nin, with their tastefully risque covers, were marketed as erotica, which to my preternaturally cynical and puritan mind was pornography without pictures aimed at those who would never venture into a sex shop. It appears that Anaïs Nin was something of a bold and free spirit, an intelligent and sensual woman who did not let duty, convention or the feelings of others inhibit her search for sensation.
Alas, in the film she comes across as wilfully selfish. I found the framing of her sexual exploration as some sort search for truth to be self-serving and not a little tiresome. I was also troubled by her ready acquiesence to forced sex. None of the characters were particularly sympathetic, least of all Henry Miller, who in Fred Ward's uninspiring portrayal came across as a bit of a boor. As a whole, the film, built around Anaïs Nin's bed hopping, had no sense of narrative or growth, and consequently, for all its sex and conscious sophistication, felt slow. In fact, never the equal of its pretensions, I thought it was interminable, not even the lesbian sex scenes, which helped make it America's first NC-17 film, stirred my interest; much. I think the film suffered because its souce material was a diary, and the screenwriters did not so enough with it to fashion a movie.
Patricia didn't think it was so bad, but I seem to have less patience for films that waste my time these days. |
Last edited by jeremy on Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:51 pm; edited 2 times in total
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| gromit |
| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:08 am |
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Joined: 31 Aug 2004
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Location: Shanghai
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| I saw Henry and June in a theater when it first came out. Long and dull. |
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| marantzo |
| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:56 am |
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I saw Henry and June in the theatre (in Montreal, The Egyptian) and thought it was excellent. Fred Ward was very good as Henry Miller and I know my Henry Miller. The Nin character was what Jeremy said. And it fit with how I thought she was, but my idea of her personality may not be accurate. Henry's character was vulgar, maybe a better description would be brash, but certainly not a bore for me. Miller, in life could do things that wouldn't inspire sympathy and in his writings he doesn't sugarcoat it.
I didn't find the film dull at all, though I had the same reaction to Nin's search for...whatever...not that interesting or entertaining. Not a woman that I would have any patience with, but Henry didn't seem to mind as long as he could have her as an enabler and sexual playmate. |
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| lshap |
| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:40 am |
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Joined: 12 May 2004
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Location: Montreal
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Marj wrote: lshap wrote: I believe Canada's hate speech law is mostly a subcategory of incitement to commit violence. Speech is free, but actions stemming from speech aren't. What gives it a Hate Speech label is if the speech targets a racial or sexual minority.
Lorne - Isn't that the definition of Hate Speech?
Yeah, it is. I just don't get the practical difference between inciting violence against someone who's gay versus someone who's, say, Republican. |
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| whiskeypriest |
| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:47 am |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
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Location: "It's a Dry Heat."
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lshap wrote: Marj wrote: lshap wrote: I believe Canada's hate speech law is mostly a subcategory of incitement to commit violence. Speech is free, but actions stemming from speech aren't. What gives it a Hate Speech label is if the speech targets a racial or sexual minority.
Lorne - Isn't that the definition of Hate Speech?
Yeah, it is. I just don't get the practical difference between inciting violence against someone who's gay versus someone who's, say, Republican.
1. Republicanism is a conscious choice that can be changed at any time, as opposed to an immutable characteristic.
2. Violence against Republicans is not a widespread social problem. |
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| lshap |
| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:20 am |
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Quote: 1. Republicanism is a conscious choice that can be changed at any time, as opposed to an immutable characteristic.
Ironically, the people with the most animosity towards homosexuality would dispute that fact.
Quote: 2. Violence against Republicans is not a widespread social problem.
Except in this forum.
My point is I don't get why hate, as a motive, should be passed through a demographic filter. Whether I hate someone for his race, colour, sexuality, beliefs on abortion, politics or religion, shouldn't my guilt be judged on the outcome of that hate? Why should I be judged on the biological history of the group to which my victim belongs? |
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| gromit |
| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:49 am |
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Joined: 31 Aug 2004
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Location: Shanghai
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| I'm not a supporter of hate crimes legislation, but do think such odious behavior towards minority groups should be taken into consideration during the penalty phase after someone is convicted. I would say that assault, for instance, is a crime, but someone could receive a longer sentence if their assault was motivated by hate for a minority. Lots of mitigating factors are allowed during sentencing. And the extent of punishment can reflect the odiousness intent of the crime and its anti-social nature. |
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| Marj |
| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:09 pm |
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Joined: 21 May 2004
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Location: Manhattan
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Quote: My point is I don't get why hate, as a motive, should be passed through a demographic filter. Whether I hate someone for his race, colour, sexuality, beliefs on abortion, politics or religion, shouldn't my guilt be judged on the outcome of that hate? Why should I be judged on the biological history of the group to which my victim belongs?
Lorne - I know I'm just repeating what Whiskey said but I agree with him. Republicanism, and the beliefs that spring from being one, is a choice. But I don't think we hate republicans. We strongly disagree with them.
I've also never heard of anyone being killed because they were a republican.
And gromit's right too. Republican's aren't a minority group. |
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| lshap |
| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:51 pm |
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Joined: 12 May 2004
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Location: Montreal
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First of all, I was kidding about that Republican thing.
My point is I think that sentencing someone based on demographics is tricky. Crimes are committed and judged on their individual merits, not on greater historical trends. Once you bring minority status into it you're forced to include history, biology, beliefs, education and sociology - a big vat of murky details that neither the offender nor victim may be aware of.
The gay male winks at you, so you beat him up. The straight male winks at your girlfriend, so you beat him up. The former could be tried as a hate crime, the latter as simple assault. Is this correct? |
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| marantzo |
| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:24 pm |
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Quote:
The gay male winks at you, so you beat him up. The straight male winks at your girlfriend, so you beat him up. The former could be tried as a hate crime, the latter as simple assault. Is this correct?
If you beat him up, it's not assault, it's battery. Assault in the legal sense is akin to threatening. That's why there is a crime of Assault and Battery.
As for speech, assault could refer to an oration that spouts something like, "We will gather our forces and search out all the faggots we can find and drive them out of our towns and cities." Though you might have to name an individual or individuals to classify it as a crime of assault. |
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| yambu |
| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:43 pm |
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Joined: 23 May 2004
Posts: 6441
Location: SF Bay Area
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| The other necessary element of assault is that one must have the present capability of carrying out the threat. That's why phone threats are not assault. |
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| marantzo |
| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:07 pm |
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Thanks yambu. It's so nice having lawyers on our site. Why don't we have any doctors?
I guess we would if my son ever posted. |
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| jeremy |
| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:11 pm |
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6794
Location: Derby, England and Hamilton, New Zealand (yes they are about 12,000 miles apart)
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Gary,
I did not mean to imply that Henry Miller was a bore, just that, from the film's perspective, his part was to provide a bit of rough for Ms Nin. Whereas, I was more interested in the creative process that led to the writing of Tropic Of Capricorn. |
_________________
I am angry, I am ill, and I'm as ugly as sin.
My irritability keeps me alive and kicking.
I know the meaning of life, it doesn't help me a bit.
I know beauty and I know a good thing when I see it. |
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