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lady wakasa
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:06 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 5911 Location: Beyond the Blue Horizon
The Anne Coulter thing is a distraction.

Joe Vitus wrote:
Either it's fit to be used for any woman who irritates one (as "dick" is for any man) or it should not be used at all.


Apply that to the original statement, then.

I'm really going to walk away for now, because otherwise I'm going to get really really angry.

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lady wakasa
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:08 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 5911 Location: Beyond the Blue Horizon
And I would be just as offended if someone - Black or not - called me a nigger.

Okay, I'm taking a break from this. Because I don't need this.

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Marc
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:15 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 19 May 2004 Posts: 8423
Quote:
Because I don't need this.


Who does?
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marantzo
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:33 pm Reply with quote
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Lenny Bruce did a bit on what he thought was the worst of four letter words. It was "snot" and then he went into all the reasons. On being that if you get it on a suede jacket, you can't get it out and it's there forever. Your suede jacket with snot on it.

He made a good point. Laughing

I wish you women would realize that the men are made of snips and snails and puppy dog's tails. How do you expect us to act.
Marj
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:40 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 10497 Location: Manhattan
Marc and Gary,

Please don't be flip about this. Lady makes a good point. To wit: Just because I found Marc's conversation funny, it doesn't mean we all should let loose with every derogatory word in the book. Some people are more sensitive than others and some words are simply out of bounds. Words that attack one's race, religion or culture for me, are vile and hurtful.

My very late 2 cents.
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carrobin
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:59 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 7727 Location: NYC
I've avoided joining in this discussion but can't help pointing out that men--at least white straight men--seem much less sensitive to derogatory words than women are. There have always been derogatory words for women, and for men who aren't white or straight or of whatever religion is proper at the time, but how many truly derogatory words are there for men that don't simply accuse them of being less than men? Trying to equate most words used against women, whether cunt or bitch or cow (note how many insults are names for female animals, whereas male animals are generally used to praise men) is like equating "nigger" with "honky." I've got a lot of words for people like Dick Cheney and my cousin Larry (don't ask), but none of them are sexual. Anyway, my point is: Words matter. (That's why I'm a copy editor.)
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Marc
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:17 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 19 May 2004 Posts: 8423
Quote:
Please don't be flip about this.


Marj, I have been everything but flip about this. I have shared my feelings in depth and with honesty.
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Marj
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:15 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 10497 Location: Manhattan
Marc wrote:
Quote:
Please don't be flip about this.


Marj, I have been everything but flip about this. I have shared my feelings in depth and with honesty.


You have, Marc.

Perhaps I should have quoted. I was only referring to Lady's last post and your and Garys response to it. And after rereading it, I realize I only wanted to respond to her. She made some good points as did Carol just now. I was wrong in including you. And Gary too. He was just being silly as is his want.

Sorry Guys.
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Syd
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:26 pm Reply with quote
Site Admin Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 12611 Location: Norman, Oklahoma
carrobin wrote:
Trying to equate most words used against women, whether cunt or bitch or cow (note how many insults are names for female animals, whereas male animals are generally used to praise men) is like equating "nigger" with "honky."


"Shrew" and "shrewish" seem to be used exclusively for women although the sex of the shrew isn't specified. I've known men it could easily apply to.

I've defended the use of "bitch" as a verb because there doesn't seem to be a good substitute ("complain" and "whine" have different connotations), but both men and women can bitch about something.

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carrobin
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:31 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 7727 Location: NYC
Actually, "bitch" has become generally acceptable--it can even be used admiringly, as in "the bitch is back" (and as exemplified by Cordelia Chase in a favorite "Angel" episode).
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Marc
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:49 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 19 May 2004 Posts: 8423
25,000 words of my memoir, "44 WOMEN", have been written. (This is viewable on my blog). I write explicitly of my sexual experiences when I was in my 20's and 30's. In all of my descriptions of fucking and sucking, I never used the word "cunt". Which surprised me because I often use it during sex. Particularly, hot sex. "I love your cunt", for example.
I have a theory that words that have the strongest "sexual charge" are the words that are also the most offensive when used as angry insults. Words like "fuck" and "cocksucker" are sexually powerful words and they are equally powerful insults. I swore to myself many many years ago that I would not use sexual words in vain. Having read a lot of Wilhelm Reich, I understand the link between the angry use of sexual terms and sexual armoring in the individual.

As long as we perceive these words as "dirty", we will perceive our sexuality as dirty. I consider myself a sexually healthy person. There is nothing about any part of the human body that turns me off. I once wrote an epic poem to my girlfriend's asshole.

In my close relationships, I have asked my friends and lovers to refrain from using sexual terms in vain. My daughter and Mirgun will testify to this. In conversation, I rarely use them unless I am talking about sex. I'm not prone to cussing. I admit to slipping into using "fuck" as slang and I usually catch myself doing it and I'm displeased with myself when I do.

In a perfect world "fuck you" would be the nicest thing you could say to someone, not the worst. Calling a man a "pussy" is a compliment. What could be more lovely.

In a literary context, anything goes. That's why Henry Miller and Charles Bukowski's copious use of the word "cunt", both as object and as insult, is perfectly acceptable to me. The book "Irene's Cunt" by French surrealist Louis Aragon is a favorite of mine. It's a book on sexual obsession and the title sums up the focus of Aragon's obsession. Inga Musica's "Cunt: A Declaration of Independence", which I read 6 or 7 years ago, is a feminist manifesto on encouraging women to reclaim the word "cunt" in the same was as gays reclaimed "queer" and "faggot" and Blacks reclaimed "nigger". Musica makes the argument that men use the word "cunt" pejoratively because they fear "cuntpower". Femnazi Andrea Dworkin makes a similar argument as to the fear factor but sees the word as being beyond reclamation. But, Dworkin hates sex almost as much as her husband, the self-loathing John Stoltenberg. Stoltenberg's "The End Of Manhood" is the blabbering of a man who not only fears pussy, but of one who's been whipped into submission by it. My bookshelves groan with books on racism, sexism and animal rights. I became a vegetarian at 15. I've been a political radical and social activist as long as I can remember.

The fundamental reason that men use the word "cunt" in vain is because they feel powerless before the thing itself. Valerie Solonas said it best (if not very poetically): "most men would wade through a mile of vomit and swim up a river of snot if a piece of pussy was at the other end". So, ladies, piss and moan all you like, but the fact is you do have an amazing amount of power over men. Pussy power is an awesome and beautiful thing. We go to work so we can afford it. We write entire books about it. We feel incomplete without it. We lose sleep over it. We fall to our knees and pray to it. Can the same be said of women and the poor little penis.
I have spent most of my adult life in supplication to the almighty Yoni.

Since I was teenybopper, I have devoted a good portion of my journey to the understanding of sexism, homophobia and racism. Reading Eldridge Cleaver, Huey Newton, Stokely Carmichael was an antidote to my growing up in the racist south. At the age of 18 I worked with the Black Panther Party, selling the Panther newsletter and volunteering for their breakfast program in Oakland.
I read de Beauvoir, Steinhem, Dworkin, Greer, all in effort to confront the sexism and misogyny I inherited from my father and male culture at large. I read Marco Vassi, Ginsberg, Diane di Prima,Jill Johnston, in an effort to understand and build empathy for my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters. And when I wasn't reading these books, I was living with gay men, gay women, Black men and women. My first girlfriend was Mary. She was Black. We were 15 and living in the South. It was not easy. It's in my memoirs. All of it.
In the 60s, I experimented with every form of sex imaginable, with the exception of children and animals. I pride myself on having been an exceptionally open minded human being since I was a young boy.
I've often remarked that I am a latent bi-sexual with heterosexual guilt feelings. I exclude no one as potential lover, I embrace all flesh. I am positively Whitmanesque.

Now suck on that, dear lovers.
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Befade
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:55 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 3686 Location: AZ
I guess I would think the c word would be the worst one if used by someone to describe me......but apart from whether Marc meant it as a joke that didn't offend Marj........

This is what bothers me:

Quote:
Your pious horseshit has become unbearable. Not only in here, but on Facebook as well.


Marc......you don't have to like everyone here.......but do you have to chase the ones you don't like away? Your strong comebacks (rightly or wrongly) do make some people leave. You did this with Bart (Nilson) and I really miss him.

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Marc
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:03 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 19 May 2004 Posts: 8423
Betsy,

I call em as I see em. Just as Lissa did.
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carrobin
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:08 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 7727 Location: NYC
Marc, unfortunately, is in the minority. While it's true that women have a certain power over men, a lot of men hate women for it and will attack women both physically and verbally just because they can't deal with it in a mature way. One reason I don't like organized religion is that all organized religions seem to have been organized specifically to put women in an inferior situation and to keep them there with both threats and compliments. It's human, it's historic, it ain't going away any time soon.
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Syd
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:14 pm Reply with quote
Site Admin Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 12611 Location: Norman, Oklahoma
I just got a call from Winnipeg, Manitoba. I guess they must have been shooting a movie.

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