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| Joe Vitus |
 Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:43 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 14498
Location: Houston
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Marj,
If your eyesight can handle it, the whole thing is on You Tube, letterboxed. Not the most pleasant way to watch a two-hour plus movie. Or, it was on You Tube...just looked to find you a link, but sometimes you have to search creatively.
Gary walked out of it, but I still don't know (and I guess he doesn't either) whether he saw the full or the butchered version. I think it's witty, sweet (yes, sweet! From Ken Russell!) and infectious.
It continues to be a favorite of mine. And I wowed my Seattle housemates when we wathed a videotape of it. |
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| gromit |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:07 pm |
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Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 9010
Location: Shanghai
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I got to thinking more about my Cain & Abel reading of Anti-Christ and extended it into an overarching anti-chronology for the whole film.
The Cain and Abel reading (more or less) follows if you realize that they go to Eden, so that they represent Adam and Eve, and therefore their children should be Cain and Abel. Fratricide occurs, symbolically, as the conception of a second child kills the first.
Of course, the order is wrong as Cain the 1st born killed his younger brother Abel.
But von Trier essentially employs a reverse chronology throughout:
First the man and woman have a child.
Then they have sex.
Then it's just the two of them without children.
Then they go to Eden.
Then there is no God to direct and order things ...
Spoiler:
Quote: (So they undergo mutilation and castration so that they likely won't/can't have children .. but I'm not sure what that's all about it, except Eden is sort of an anti-Paradise as Nature is nasty and chaotic and distinctly ungodly).
Actually I think the whole film is vague and loosely allegorical that many interps can be fitted in. I didn't really come up with anything for the ending, just thinking that it represented paganism, which does fit in with the anti-chronology, as paganism would equal pre-Christianity. |
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| Syd |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:15 pm |
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 12921
Location: Norman, Oklahoma
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I haven't seen much Russell. I've seen Altered States, which I don't remember very well, and his section on Aria, which was the most memorable part of that movie. I've seen clips of quite a few other films of his.
Marc's got dibs on Lynch at the moment, and I'm interested in that, too. Lynch is a lot more current, although Russell's still making films at the age on 82. Russell's got a version of Moll Flanders coming out next year. |
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| Marj |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:26 pm |
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 10497
Location: Manhattan
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Thanks Joe. I know I shouldn't say this as I've always been a huge baseball fan. But I'm losing interest in this series. I switched channels for a moment and missed Damon's double steal.
Maybe I'll watch The Boy Friend tonight! |
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| lady wakasa |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:33 pm |
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 5911
Location: Beyond the Blue Horizon
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gromit wrote: I got to thinking more about my Cain & Abel reading of Anti-Christ and extended it into an overarching anti-chronology for the whole film.
The Cain and Abel reading (more or less) follows if you realize that they go to Eden, so that they represent Adam and Eve, and therefore their children should be Cain and Abel. Fratricide occurs, symbolically, as the conception of a second child kills the first.
Of course, the order is wrong as Cain the 1st born killed his younger brother Abel.
But von Trier essentially employs a reverse chronology throughout:
First the man and woman have a child.
Then they have sex.
Then it's just the two of them without children.
Then they go to Eden.
Then there is no God to direct and order things ...
Spoiler:
Quote: (So they undergo mutilation and castration so that they likely won't/can't have children .. but I'm not sure what that's all about it, except Eden is sort of an anti-Paradise as Nature is nasty and chaotic and distinctly ungodly).
Actually I think the whole film is vague and loosely allegorical that many interps can be fitted in. I didn't really come up with anything for the ending, just thinking that it represented paganism, which does fit in with the anti-chronology, as paganism would equal pre-Christianity.
This is really really high level, and I definitely see where you're coming from, but I thought SPOILER Von Trier looks misogynistic but actually is being very much misanthropic, showing the husband as suffocating his wife into believing the traditional take on a woman and her place in society. There's quite a bit about how she internalized his thought about her dissertation being glib; how he always thinks he's right; how he's going to save her, not the medical professionals trained to do that. She resents her kid - thus the abuse; then she resents him - thus the mess she made of his body; then she resents herself, she's filled with a LOT of self-loathing - thus the mess she makes of *her* body. And she basically *does* force him to kill her. I really think the epilogue, when all the "sisters" come up to him, is getting at that. So, given that Von Trier has talked about the dispossessed and women in society before, I do think this is part of the equation.SPOILER This is the first time I've written this down, and yes, it needs to be tightened up.
Doesn't exclude your interpretation, which goes more to structure than themes (and which admittedly I haven't had a choice to go back and read) and so far does look pretty intriguing - but I just went in another direction. And it's only been 23 hrs for me at this point... |
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| Marc |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:52 pm |
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Joined: 19 May 2004
Posts: 8424
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| I have Lynch's INLAND EMPIRE on it's way to me right now. |
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| lady wakasa |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:54 pm |
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 5911
Location: Beyond the Blue Horizon
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Lynch would be fun, although I was having a discussion about a Coen Bros board last night...
At the least, it'd give me an excuse to buy the Lynch box, LOL. |
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| Syd |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:05 pm |
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 12921
Location: Norman, Oklahoma
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lady wakasa wrote: Lynch would be fun, although I was having a discussion about a Coen Bros board last night...
At the least, it'd give me an excuse to buy the Lynch box, LOL.
I liked the Coen suggestion, too. I've seen about half their films and it would give me a good reason to watch the other half. |
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I had a love and my love was true but I lost my love to the yabba dabba doo, --The Flintstone Lament |
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| Joe Vitus |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:07 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 14498
Location: Houston
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We've done the Coen's, though. (And it expanded my appreciation of their work.)
I did buy the Pagnol trilogy, and if anyone is interested, I'd like do to a forum on them. Mabye expand it to deal with the 80's era adapations of his Jean De Florette and Manon of the Springs.
Have we done Cocteau?
Of course, I'd be up for a Horst Buchholz, but I don't think there will be any other takers.  |
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| lady wakasa |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:14 pm |
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 5911
Location: Beyond the Blue Horizon
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Joe Vitus wrote: We've done the Coen's, though. (And it expanded my appreciation of their work.)
I did buy the Pagnol trilogy, and if anyone is interested, I'd like do to a forum on them. Mabye expand it to deal with the 80's era adapations of his Jean De Florette and Manon of the Springs.
Have we done Cocteau?
Of course, I'd be up for a Horst Buchholz, but I don't think there will be any other takers.
We did the Coens?
Pagnol would be funny, but that's an old joke I have with a friend.
Cocteau would be fun, but there's so little of him... although he's relatively accessible (surprisingly enough). |
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| Joe Vitus |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:18 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 14498
Location: Houston
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| You're right, there aren't many movies. But we could include Les Enfants Terribles, which isn't his but is from his novel and, I think, generally considered a successful attempt on the part of the director Jean-Pierre Melville to enter Cocteau's world. |
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| billyweeds |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:04 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 20618
Location: New York City
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lady wakasa wrote: Joe Vitus wrote: We've done the Coen's, though. (And it expanded my appreciation of their work.)
I did buy the Pagnol trilogy, and if anyone is interested, I'd like do to a forum on them. Mabye expand it to deal with the 80's era adapations of his Jean De Florette and Manon of the Springs.
Have we done Cocteau?
Of course, I'd be up for a Horst Buchholz, but I don't think there will be any other takers.
We did the Coens?
I don't remember that either. |
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| Melody |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:07 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 2242
Location: TX
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DAVID LYNCH SHORT FILM
is showing on Sundance channel one hour from now, called The Cowboy and the Frenchman, starring Harry Dean Stanton. Thought I'd alert y'all to that in case we really do have a David Lynch forum, which I'd be super-thrilled about.
The Amputee played a couple of times, too, but it's not scheduled for anymore showings. I do believe this one is available on YouTube (it's eight minutes long). It stars Catherine "Log Lady" Coulson and Lynch, in drag. |
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| Joe Vitus |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:26 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 14498
Location: Houston
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billyweeds wrote: lady wakasa wrote: Joe Vitus wrote: We've done the Coen's, though. (And it expanded my appreciation of their work.)
I did buy the Pagnol trilogy, and if anyone is interested, I'd like do to a forum on them. Mabye expand it to deal with the 80's era adapations of his Jean De Florette and Manon of the Springs.
Have we done Cocteau?
Of course, I'd be up for a Horst Buchholz, but I don't think there will be any other takers.
We did the Coens?
I don't remember that either.
Heading to class, but I thought we did the Coens and went though a lot of their movies. I remember renting them one after the other, and I sure wouldn't have done that on my own (not with Fargo among them, as was the case). This might have been back at the Times site. |
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| Melody |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:43 pm |
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Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 2242
Location: TX
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| I had a really good theory all worked out for Inland Empire right after I saw it. I remember Lady and Wade and I talked about it for a while. I'll need to buy it for the forum because that discussion will be useless without having it on hand. |
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