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billyweeds
Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:11 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 20618 Location: New York City
I agree about animation, but the usual dub job looks bizarre, mouth-to-words-wise.
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marantzo
Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:36 pm Reply with quote
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Animation is easy to dub. I'm not sure how good a dubbing of Donald Duck, Sylvester, or Porky Pig would be.

When I lived in Paris the cartoons were all subtitled. One time Speedy Gonzales said something like, "I will come and get you." with the "will" pronounced "weel". The subtitle translated it as "roue" "wheel".
Syd
Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:46 pm Reply with quote
Site Admin Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 12921 Location: Norman, Oklahoma
Gromit: he calls them "pétasses."

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lady wakasa
Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:01 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 5911 Location: Beyond the Blue Horizon
Sub / dub :

I wonder if dub is a carryover from when movies were shown to a fair number of semiliterate audiences (in other words, waaaay long ago) and just became tradition. Narration was huge for quite awhile (benshi, for example, were often more popular than actors) and that basic concept was widespread - except in the US, though there's almost always been less of a demand for translated movies here. I'm also not sure if right after WWII it would've been cheaper to dub productions.

But I think that there's a certain music to language that it's next to impossible for dubbing to get. Especially since the dubbing is usually done completely separately from the original production, with a different cast, director, etc.

I forget which movie it was, but there's something that they used Brooklynese accents for certain characters, and it was A Really Bad Idea. (Er,... I'll have to ask my friend which movie.) Completely lost the feel of the original, because the sense of "working class" in the original film didn't carry over very well.

Now, there is an anime whose English voice actors used a Texas accent to emulate an Osakan dialect (Osaka is supposed to be regarded roughly the same way in Japan that Texas is in the US). That worked *really* well - AFAICT it's just as hilarious in English (the main characters were 12 so it didn't come across as a dig at Texas, or Osaka). But that's the only time I can think of dubbing working.

Though I guess it works in spaghetti Westerns, because that's partially what spaghetti Westerns are *about*.

Okay, I'm rambling now, that's it for tonight.

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lissa
Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:09 am Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 2148 Location: my computer
Quote:
I wonder if dub is a carryover from when movies were shown to a fair number of semiliterate audiences (in other words, waaaay long ago)


I have heard people at Blockbuster when told they are renting a subtitled film.

"I don't WANT that movie. If I wanted to read, I'd get a newspaper, not a movie!"

I had this conversation back on the NYTFF as well as here, when Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon was released in both subbed and dubbed versions. I was "warned" by the clerk at Blockbuster that it was subtitled. I told him I'd have it no other way! I once returned Like Water For Chocolate (when it first came out on VHS) because it was dubbed. The richness of the native language, the actors' voices and inflection and the nuance of what I'm hearing is more important to me than the literal translation. Between subtitles and inflection, I get the gist and I hear it as the director intended it.

However, those semiliterate people still exist...or are just too lazy to read the subtitles.

Did I ever relate the story about when I rented two foreign films? I got Lovers on the Bridge and Lovers of the Arctic Circle. This was in the time of VHS. The cases were spine-up on the counter and Ms. Blockbuster said, "oh, you have two of the same movies." I said, "No," and pointed out the difference. She laughed and said, "Ohhhhh...I thought because they both say subtitled!"

*shudder*

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marantzo
Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:56 am Reply with quote
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I remember those posts, Lissa. I didn't remember who wrote them but I did remember that it was a woman.

The only great thing about Blockbuster is that it makes for some great anecdotes.
gromit
Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:52 am Reply with quote
Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 9010 Location: Shanghai
When you are reading subtitles, you are putting less focus on the visual compositions. And your attention is often focused down towards the bottom of the screen. Not to mention that the subs themselves are blocking part of the composition.

And for some films, which have a lot of talking, reading subtitles can seriously detract from watching the movie. Unfortunately, such static talking-oriented films (ie Rohmer's Tale of Spring, which I just watched) are also the ones where you'll notice poor lip-syncing with dubbing.

I'm not a big advocate of dubbing. Just find it odd how entrenched subbing is, and people seem to gloss over the problems of subbing because it is familiar and comfortable.

Lissa, I think you missed my point about "literal" translation. It's just a matter of how faithful the translation wants/needs to be to the original language. An example: in a faculty meeting in The Class, one teacher says something which was subbed as "giving the students freebies". And since the word "freebies" seemed such American slang, I wondered what the French really said. The dubbing had "give them Christmas presents." Listening again, I could hear that the French used some variant on "Noel" (however spelled/pronounced in French).
Here, the dubbing was more of a literal translation, though it easily could have been the reverse.

I assume that the subtitle translators wanted to catch the sense of informality and the everyday style of speech, so went with an Americanism.
For my part, I preferred in this instance knowing more what was actually said in French. Which is probably my general preference.

Actually, it'd be nice if Dvd's could provide more than one English subtitle option. I've gotten this on rare occasions, and it's helpful to compare, or to choose the one you prefer.

Dubbing and subtitling are distinct skills. With a dub, you generally want about the same length of dialogue and hopefully you can fit it to the mouth shapes reasonably well. Subtitling often requires a condensation, as we read slower than we talk. I think both dubbing and subbing are free to choose between literal translation and getting the sense/feel of the language -- or some middle perch in between.

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Syd
Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:04 am Reply with quote
Site Admin Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 12921 Location: Norman, Oklahoma
I think I mentioned before that I have enough hearing loss that I often use closed captioning, particularly in movies where people have accents. So I'll often put subtitles on even when the movie is in British. Watching all those foreign films over the years makes it feel natural.

One movie I much prefer in the subtitled version is Get Out Your Handkerchief, where the lead actress has the perfect voice for her role.

One movie where I do like the dubbed version better is Kiki's Delivery Service, where they did an excellent job choosing the voice actors. And, of course, it's animated.

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lady wakasa
Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:22 am Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 5911 Location: Beyond the Blue Horizon
Here's a HELP! question:

I want to buy someone a copy of Coraline as a gift. They have both a regular and a Blu-Ray DVD player. Coraline comes in 3-D as well.

Should there be any problem with mixing 3-D and Blu-Ray? (I've never seen Blu-Ray to get a sense of just what the technology is supposed to be doing.)

Of course, there is a 3D / Blu-Ray / regular combo box, so she could decide what she wants to watch...

Heck, maybe I'll go see if this is on DVD Beaver.

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billyweeds
Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:23 am Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 20618 Location: New York City
Off the subject of The Class for a moment at least: I saw Bottle Shock, a quite charming, funny, and instructive "true story" about a famous (to some, not me) wine tasting of 1976 where French wines were pitted against California. It features really entertaining performances from Chris Pine (Kirk in the Star Trek remake), Freddy Rodriguez, Alan Rickman, and Bill Pullman, and gorgeous photography of the Napa wine country. Best wine movie I've seen outside of Sideways.
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Joe Vitus
Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:02 am Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 14498 Location: Houston
gromit wrote:
When you are reading subtitles, you are putting less focus on the visual compositions. And your attention is often focused down towards the bottom of the screen. Not to mention that the subs themselves are blocking part of the composition.

And for some films, which have a lot of talking, reading subtitles can seriously detract from watching the movie. Unfortunately, such static talking-oriented films (ie Rohmer's Tale of Spring, which I just watched) are also the ones where you'll notice poor lip-syncing with dubbing.

I'm not a big advocate of dubbing. Just find it odd how entrenched subbing is, and people seem to gloss over the problems of subbing because it is familiar and comfortable.

Lissa, I think you missed my point about "literal" translation. It's just a matter of how faithful the translation wants/needs to be to the original language. An example: in a faculty meeting in The Class, one teacher says something which was subbed as "giving the students freebies". And since the word "freebies" seemed such American slang, I wondered what the French really said. The dubbing had "give them Christmas presents." Listening again, I could hear that the French used some variant on "Noel" (however spelled/pronounced in French).
Here, the dubbing was more of a literal translation, though it easily could have been the reverse.

I assume that the subtitle translators wanted to catch the sense of informality and the everyday style of speech, so went with an Americanism.
For my part, I preferred in this instance knowing more what was actually said in French. Which is probably my general preference.

Actually, it'd be nice if Dvd's could provide more than one English subtitle option. I've gotten this on rare occasions, and it's helpful to compare, or to choose the one you prefer.

Dubbing and subtitling are distinct skills. With a dub, you generally want about the same length of dialogue and hopefully you can fit it to the mouth shapes reasonably well. Subtitling often requires a condensation, as we read slower than we talk. I think both dubbing and subbing are free to choose between literal translation and getting the sense/feel of the language -- or some middle perch in between.


The worst thing about dubbing, for me, is that I recognize the voices from the soft-core porno that played on cable in my teens. When you're watcing a Bergman metaphysical drama, it can be really distracting.

The up-down problem is never half as serious at the movies, where you can sit far enough back to take both the picutre and words in almost simultaneously.

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billyweeds
Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:05 am Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 20618 Location: New York City
Joe Vitus wrote:

The worst thing about dubbing, for me, is that I recognize the voices from the soft-core porno that played on cable in my teens. When you're watcing a Bergman metaphysical drama, it can be really distracting.



ROTFLMAO.
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marantzo
Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:17 am Reply with quote
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The dubbing in Singin' In the Rain was terrific. Outside of that, I've never liked dubbing, though I have rarely gone dubbed movies.

Oh, wait, the dubbing in What's Up Tiger Lilly? was also terrific. Smile
lissa
Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:40 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 2148 Location: my computer
Quote:
The only great thing about Blockbuster is that it makes for some great anecdotes.


And they're up the street from me. And they sell movie-size boxes of Junior Mints. And I get a free rental with every 5 I pay for...other than that, nothing but anecdotes.

gromit, I do understand your point. Sometimes I wonder if the subtitler (whoever gets that job) is too lazy to dig for something that remains faithful to meaning...food for thought!

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billyweeds
Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:47 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 20618 Location: New York City
The most hilarious dubbing I've ever heard (apart from the intentionally funny What's Up Tiger Lily) was a full English translation of The Umbrellas of Cherbourg, where all the songs were sung in English. They were all hysterical, but my favorite line was from the song that became "Watch What Happens."

"Formerly...
I was working in a clothing factory..."


Sing it to the tune of "Watch What Happens" and giggle.
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