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lissa
Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:18 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 2148 Location: my computer
(deleted duplicate post - not sure why it did THAT!)

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marantzo
Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:23 pm Reply with quote
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Lissa, if my avatar wasn't cropped so it would fit the parameters you would see that my hands on my knees are exactly like yours are. But I was only three at the time. Smile
lissa
Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:26 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 2148 Location: my computer
And oh-so-debonair, even at age 3, Mr. M!

If you'd like to send me the whole pic, I can rework it so your hand show...
Wink

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mo_flixx
Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:37 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 30 May 2004 Posts: 12533
U.S.A. Today calls "Button" "Forest Gramp!" You can't do much worse than that.
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Ghulam
Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:43 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 4742 Location: Upstate NY
I agree with Lorne's review of Benjamin Button. A good 15 minute read as a short story, but $14.00 and three hours of our time???
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jeremy
Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:53 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 6794 Location: Derby, England and Hamilton, New Zealand (yes they are about 12,000 miles apart)
If I did some reading, I guess it would become clearer, but I've never really understood the messages of the Wizard of Oz. By having Dorothy so dearly wish to return to the grey (literally) economically straightened dust bowl that was Kansas, is the film saying that family and duty are more important than personal fulfilment. Wouldn't it have been better to stay in her glorious technicolour dreamland, with her trio of lpatheticly gfrateful male companions and her cherry red fuck-me pumps. Is Dorothy's fantastic but morally homely bildungsroman, a cautionary tale of about pleasures of the road or a testament to mom’s meatloaf? And is is our depression era Alice telling us something about the the internal or ecternal world or even about precocious little girls and how they bring out the best, purely paternal instincts in middle-aged male writers.

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Befade
Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:02 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 3784 Location: AZ
Quote:
Wade - I can come into The Wizard of Oz just at the part where she is saying goodbye to the threesome, and it's instant tears for me. I LOVE that film and own the DVD. Classic is too mild a word for that movie!


I'd like to own the movie......but the last time I checked on Amazon it was quite expensive.

And Wade......I kept trying to find a movie appropriate to watch yesterday and Wizard was what I wanted.......and didn't have.

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lady wakasa
Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:15 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 5911 Location: Beyond the Blue Horizon
jeremy wrote:
By having Dorothy so dearly wish to return to the grey (literally) economically straightened dust bowl that was Kansas, is the film saying that family and duty are more important than personal fulfilment.


I would say, in a word, yes. Remember, the book was written in 1900. I always read the movie as taking place then, too. The story might've had messages for people just pulling out of the Depression, but that wasn't where it originally came from.

Quote:
Wouldn't it have been better to stay in her glorious technicolour dreamland, with her trio of lpatheticly gfrateful male companions and her cherry red fuck-me pumps.


I dunno, but that seems kinda... sacrilegious or something.

Quote:
And is is our depression era Alice telling us something about the the internal or ecternal world or even about precocious little girls and how they bring out the best, purely paternal instincts in middle-aged male writers.


That I think is you, because it was very much a children's book.

Now, going into Wikipedia: it shows influences from the Brothers Grimm, Hans Christian Anderson, the Alice in Wonderland books, and possibly "fantastic" hotels and such of the period. There are possible political allusions as well. (All this is interesting, I hadn't heard it before.)

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lissa
Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:19 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 2148 Location: my computer
I'm trying to dig out my copy of the BFI's publication "The Wizard of Oz" by Salman Rushdie. He analyzes it and discusses its impact on his writing. I'll let y'all know if/when I do.

And of course, Bobby McFerrin's celebrated condensed version of the movie, in most of his concerts, just blows me away.

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Syd
Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:10 pm Reply with quote
Site Admin Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 12921 Location: Norman, Oklahoma
lissa wrote:
I'm trying to dig out my copy of the BFI's publication "The Wizard of Oz" by Salman Rushdie. He analyzes it and discusses its impact on his writing. I'll let y'all know if/when I do.

And of course, Bobby McFerrin's celebrated condensed version of the movie, in most of his concerts, just blows me away.


I saw an article by Rushdie in the New Yorker on The Wizard of Oz. I wonder if it's the same one.

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Joe Vitus
Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:26 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 14498 Location: Houston
jeremy wrote:
If I did some reading, I guess it would become clearer, but I've never really understood the messages of the Wizard of Oz. By having Dorothy so dearly wish to return to the grey (literally) economically straightened dust bowl that was Kansas, is the film saying that family and duty are more important than personal fulfilment. Wouldn't it have been better to stay in her glorious technicolour dreamland, with her trio of lpatheticly gfrateful male companions and her cherry red fuck-me pumps. Is Dorothy's fantastic but morally homely bildungsroman, a cautionary tale of about pleasures of the road or a testament to mom’s meatloaf? And is is our depression era Alice telling us something about the the internal or ecternal world or even about precocious little girls and how they bring out the best, purely paternal instincts in middle-aged male writers.


I don't know why it's so difficult for adults to get what kids grasp instinctually. Kids always want to return home, no matter what home is. Even kids in terrible circumstances are very reluctant to leave home, or a part of them wants to go back home. And what kid, no matter how great a vacation he's had, isn't happy to be back home after it's all over. Home is the safety place, and that seems to be true psychologically even when it isn't true literally. How many novels, movies, etc. have been written about a person's desire to get back home, or back to the home they had as a child? That's really, at bottom, what nostalgia is all about.

Maybe its hard to understand in the case of the movie, because Judy Garland was clearly no longer a child when the movie was made, and we expect her to have a more mature response. Then again, anyone who has gone to college must be familiar with freshmen using any opportunity that comes along to get home for the weekend, even though they generally claim to be happy to be out on their own. It's a pychological draw few can resist.

Kids get why The Wizard of Oz makes sense, while adults are always saying, "But Miss Gulch is still there!"

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lshap
Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:07 pm Reply with quote
Site Admin Joined: 12 May 2004 Posts: 4248 Location: Montreal
lissa wrote:
Bobby McFerrin's celebrated condensed version of the movie, in most of his concerts, just blows me away.


Thanks for a very nice memory!
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lshap
Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:21 pm Reply with quote
Site Admin Joined: 12 May 2004 Posts: 4248 Location: Montreal
Joe Vitus wrote:
jeremy wrote:
If I did some reading, I guess it would become clearer, but I've never really understood the messages of the Wizard of Oz. By having Dorothy so dearly wish to return to the grey (literally) economically straightened dust bowl that was Kansas, is the film saying that family and duty are more important than personal fulfilment. Wouldn't it have been better to stay in her glorious technicolour dreamland, with her trio of lpatheticly gfrateful male companions and her cherry red fuck-me pumps. Is Dorothy's fantastic but morally homely bildungsroman, a cautionary tale of about pleasures of the road or a testament to mom’s meatloaf? And is is our depression era Alice telling us something about the the internal or ecternal world or even about precocious little girls and how they bring out the best, purely paternal instincts in middle-aged male writers.


I don't know why it's so difficult for adults to get what kids grasp instinctually. Kids always want to return home, no matter what home is. Even kids in terrible circumstances are very reluctant to leave home, or a part of them wants to go back home. And what kid, no matter how great a vacation he's had, isn't happy to be back home after it's all over. Home is the safety place, and that seems to be true psychologically even when it isn't true literally. How many novels, movies, etc. have been written about a person's desire to get back home, or back to the home they had as a child? That's really, at bottom, what nostalgia is all about.

Maybe its hard to understand in the case of the movie, because Judy Garland was clearly no longer a child when the movie was made, and we expect her to have a more mature response. Then again, anyone who has gone to college must be familiar with freshmen using any opportunity that comes along to get home for the weekend, even though they generally claim to be happy to be out on their own. It's a pychological draw few can resist.

Kids get why The Wizard of Oz makes sense, while adults are always saying, "But Miss Gulch is still there!"


I think the point is that Dorothy's clearly parroting an adult-imparted lesson. Frank L. Baum wasn't selling nostalgia, he was selling a 19th century adult value of self sacrifice, where fulfilling your own desires was selfish and devotion to the homestead was noble.
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Joe Vitus
Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:24 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 14498 Location: Houston
If you knew anything about Baum, you'd know that was false. Besides, what does it matter what he was selling? If that was the issue, the book would have gone out of print around 1920 and no one would bother with it anymore. The continual popularity of it, and the various movie/stage adaptations tells us that it speaks to something true.

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Joe Vitus
Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:28 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 14498 Location: Houston
By the way, in the later books. Dorothy eventually finds a way to go to Oz whenever she wishes, and ultimately moves there permanently with Aunt Em and Uncle Henry.

Doesn't this sound more realistic than the "Screw Kansas, I'm gettin' out while the gettin's good" mentality you suggest? That's how people grow. By increments. The first time you're young and in a strange place, it's "let's go home." Then you get back home and think "there was a lot of neat stuff there." Then you forge out again, for a little longer. Then come back. Finally, you're ready to make your way in the world. Isn't that the maturation process?

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