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jeremy
Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:12 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 6794 Location: Derby, England and Hamilton, New Zealand (yes they are about 12,000 miles apart)
Rod wrote:
I do have a certain sympathy for Joe's assertion that Goodfellas has become the most over-rated (though perhaps "over-cited" is a better phrase from my perspective) film in Scorsese's career. It doesn't have the penetrating character analysis and emotional demands of his greatest works. But it is a social portrait of enormous cinematic dexterity, a hilarious black comedy, and is also the most stylistically original and influential film of the '90s, there's no getting away from it. Not chopped liver.

But the amount of respect the relatively tawdry, tinny, Hollywood-with-a-thin-coat-of-New-Wave-artistry Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore is getting here is positively perverted.


I think I said something similar to this, albeit, naturally, without quite the emphatic precision. To paraphrase, I said that although Goodfellas was a 'marvellous' film within its own terms of reference, it did not ask questions of the audience the same way that some of his earlier works did, notably Taxi Driver.

I'm not really sure what the point of this post is, other than to highlight my ongoing struggle with English.

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billyweeds
Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:26 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 20618 Location: New York City
jeremy wrote:
Rod wrote:
I do have a certain sympathy for Joe's assertion that Goodfellas has become the most over-rated (though perhaps "over-cited" is a better phrase from my perspective) film in Scorsese's career. It doesn't have the penetrating character analysis and emotional demands of his greatest works. But it is a social portrait of enormous cinematic dexterity, a hilarious black comedy, and is also the most stylistically original and influential film of the '90s, there's no getting away from it. Not chopped liver.

But the amount of respect the relatively tawdry, tinny, Hollywood-with-a-thin-coat-of-New-Wave-artistry Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore is getting here is positively perverted.


I think I said something similar to this, albeit, naturally, without quite the emphatic precision. To paraphrase, I said that although Goodfellas was a 'marvellous' film within its own terms of reference, it did not ask questions of the audience the same way that some of his earlier works did, notably Taxi Driver.

I'm not really sure what the point of this post is, other than to highlight my ongoing struggle with English.


Jeremy--Rod is addressing Joe, not you.
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jeremy
Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:33 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 6794 Location: Derby, England and Hamilton, New Zealand (yes they are about 12,000 miles apart)
Quote:
...I'm not really sure what the point of this post is, other than to highlight my ongoing struggle with English.


Its alright Billy, I understood that. The rider was referring to my own post, not Rod's, with which I had no problem. Regardless, I appreciate you alerting me to the potential misunderstanding. What a tangled web we weave, well at least I do.

_________________
I am angry, I am ill, and I'm as ugly as sin.
My irritability keeps me alive and kicking.
I know the meaning of life, it doesn't help me a bit.
I know beauty and I know a good thing when I see it.
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yambu
Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:17 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 23 May 2004 Posts: 6441 Location: SF Bay Area
One original aspect of Goodfellas is the extended scene of the Henry Hill character on cocaine. His day speeds up, colors wash out, he's in constant motion and talk mode, paranoid about the helicopter... Inside the head of a coke head. If any other film has pulled this off, I haven't seen it.
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marantzo
Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:54 pm Reply with quote
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I was just thinking of that sequence before I read your post Yam. I thought when I first saw it that it was a partially successful attempt at portraying a coke head's fevered paranoia etc. but it the editing could have been much better. It seemed to lose the inner depth of the psychosis with over long sequences which for me made it a little annoying. I think some quick cutting could have made it much better. On subsequent viewings I felt the same way. It was like it was too literal in it's portrayal and it had me on the outside watching him rather than experiencing what he was going through. Some parts were very good, like the brightness being turned up and the threatening helicopters, and some were a little annoying like the obsessive spaghetti sauce preparation which could have been done with less. Unless I am imagining it, there was a voice-over throughout. I would have ditched the voice over and let the visuals do the talking. Maybe that was my problem with it.
Joe Vitus
Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:31 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 14498 Location: Houston
jeremy wrote:


I think I said something similar to this, albeit, naturally, without quite the emphatic precision. To paraphrase, I said that although Goodfellas was a 'marvellous' film within its own terms of reference, it did not ask questions of the audience the same way that some of his earlier works did, notably Taxi Driver.


Which, in fact, is my point as well.

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Rod
Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:50 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 21 Dec 2004 Posts: 2944 Location: Lithgow, Australia
I wrote more than 35,000 words on Scorsese for the Ferdy series last year and I realise I can't be bothered writing anymore. No offence, guys.


Last edited by Rod on Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

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jeremy
Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:10 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 6794 Location: Derby, England and Hamilton, New Zealand (yes they are about 12,000 miles apart)
I don't think this was ever intended to morph into a Scorsese forum anyway.

Amongst others, I remember reading Rod's Taxi Driver review when he posted the link. I intended to respond on the psyche of Travis Bickle, but I never quite got round to finishing my post, and the moment was lost.

I wondered if anyone else had wondered whether the closing scenes were actually a fantasy of Bickle's warped mind.

_________________
I am angry, I am ill, and I'm as ugly as sin.
My irritability keeps me alive and kicking.
I know the meaning of life, it doesn't help me a bit.
I know beauty and I know a good thing when I see it.
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tirebiter
Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:15 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 4011 Location: not far away
The whole thing is a figment of Paul Schrader's warped mind.
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mo_flixx
Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:26 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 30 May 2004 Posts: 12533
I love Paul Schrader.

BLUE COLLAR was a fantastic movie with the one of the best soundtracks of all time. Other faves include "An American Gigolo," and "Mishima."

He's hit a rough patch, but I really do think Schrader has proved himself to be one of our most interesting writer/directors.


Last edited by mo_flixx on Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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bocce
Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:30 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 24 May 2004 Posts: 2428
Joe Vitus wrote:
Yes, I've seen King of Comedy (many times), a creepy, effective comedy, and The Last Temptation of Christ (once, during its initial release), which I found rather bland at the time.

I've only seen parts of Raging Bull. I haven't seen Mean Streets . But clearly these two belong to his most important period and have had a huge impact on subsequent filmmakers. Whether I like them or not would be beside the point.



yeah, but seeing them would go a long way toward establishing some critical credibility on your part vis a vis scorsese, in general...

it's kind of like struggling thru FINNEGAN'S WAKE without the benefit of joyce's earlier work and making judgements based solely on that enterprise...
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marantzo
Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:08 pm Reply with quote
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Good point bocce.

The end of Taxi Driver is obviously a fantasy of Travis. Or if he's dead, a fantasy of what his screwed up mind figured would await him when he meted out justice upon the evil doers. Obvious.

And I have never figured out what all the fuss was about the "Are you talking to me?' scene.
Joe Vitus
Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:13 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 14498 Location: Houston
Bocce,

I think I can claim to have seen enough of his movies from each period to make an analysis of his development, if not to write the definitive monograph.

Among the Scorsese movies I've seen are Taxi Driver, Alice Doesn't Live Here, Anymore, New York, New York, The King of Comedy, After Hours, The Last Temptation of Christ, Cape Fear, GoodFellas. That's a pretty good sampling from each segment of his career.

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jeremy
Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:20 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 6794 Location: Derby, England and Hamilton, New Zealand (yes they are about 12,000 miles apart)
marantzo wrote:
Good point bocce.

The end of Taxi Driver is obviously a fantasy of Travis. Or if he's dead, a fantasy of what his screwed up mind figured would await him when he meted out justice upon the evil doers. Obvious.

...


Perhaps it is obvious. I guess when I first saw Taxi Driver as a callow youth my critical faculties weren't as well developed as those of our resident senex.

_________________
I am angry, I am ill, and I'm as ugly as sin.
My irritability keeps me alive and kicking.
I know the meaning of life, it doesn't help me a bit.
I know beauty and I know a good thing when I see it.
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jeremy
Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:28 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 6794 Location: Derby, England and Hamilton, New Zealand (yes they are about 12,000 miles apart)
Some easy research. Should have done it sooner. From Wiki:
Quote:
Interpretations of the ending

Roger Ebert has written of the film's ending:
"There has been much discussion about the ending, in which we see newspaper clippings about Travis's 'heroism' of saving Iris, and then Betsy gets into his cab and seems to give him admiration instead of her earlier disgust. Is this a fantasy scene? Did Travis survive the shoot-out? Are we experiencing his dying thoughts? Can the sequence be accepted as literally true? ... I am not sure there can be an answer to these questions. The end sequence plays like music, not drama: It completes the story on an emotional, not a literal, level. We end not on carnage but on redemption, which is the goal of so many of Scorsese's characters."[6]

James Berardinelli, in his review of the film, argues against the dream or fantasy interpretation, stating:
"Scorsese and writer Paul Schrader append the perfect conclusion to Taxi Driver. Steeped in irony, the five-minute epilogue underscores the vagaries of fate. The media builds Bickle into a hero, when, had he been a little quicker drawing his gun against Senator Palantine, he would have been revealed as an assassin. As the film closes, the misanthrope has been embraced as the model citizen—someone who takes on pimps, drug dealers, and mobsters to save one little girl."[7]

On the Laserdisc audio commentary, Scorsese acknowledged several critics' interpretation on the film's ending being Bickle's dying dream. However, he admitted that the last scene of Bickle glancing at an unseen object implies that he might fall into rage and recklessness in the future, and he is like "a ticking time bomb."[8] Writer Paul Schrader confirms this in his commentary on the 30th anniversary DVD, stating that Travis "is not cured by the movie's end," and that, "he's not going to be a hero next time."[9]


Last edited by jeremy on Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

_________________
I am angry, I am ill, and I'm as ugly as sin.
My irritability keeps me alive and kicking.
I know the meaning of life, it doesn't help me a bit.
I know beauty and I know a good thing when I see it.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

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